General question that might fit in this thread:

I quit playing online a few years ago and I am thinking about coming back to play recreational.

Considering that there already was a big bot problem when I quit, I‘ll just start over assuming that every site is now infested with them.
The early bots where only good enough to slightly beat CG.
I thought about playing some tournaments and make a few bucks on the side but now I am seeing this thread…

CG might already be dead by now because of bots but are MTT bots any good in 2024?

10mm sounds a lot but <15% ROI is hardly crushing..
Like I said I haven‘t played for a few years but MTTs were superuber soft and CG >NL100 were only beatable with a lot of time invest and good RB deals. Has that changed?

Tldr: still $$$ to make in tournaments?

for an entire population that's absolutely crushing

I'm not a MTT/spin/sitngo player but i would be happy with 15% ROI.

K thanks for answering. MTTs are also dead then if 15% is considered crushing

15% is not crushing

unless it’s the high rollers then it’s crushing

15% ROI around the clock, non-stop, at the scale that they are doing it, getting no heat with fast crypto cashouts, while eating hot pockets and watching netflix... isn't crushing?

Which 1,000% enables the live/work from anywhere lifestyle which means you could be in super low cost of living area because your bot farm is printing crypto.

I meant for an actual player, but sure automated bots at 15% ROI are crushing

we're talking about the an entire ecosystem of bots playing constantly and as a group taking 15% ROI out of the marketplace

let's simplify things

$100 tourney with 100 players

so a $10,000 tourney with 8% rake

$9,200 of prize pool remaining

25/100 players are bots

they make 15% ROI, pulling $2,875 out

We had a 100 man contest paying 10,000 (100 each) with 9,200 in prizes (92 each) so everyone is paying 8% rake

but that includes the bots, they need to be removed

We instead have a 75 man contest paying 7,500 (100 each) going for 6,325 (84.3 each) so everyone is paying a 15.7% rake


that's how it needs to be looked at, the 15% is massive over a large pool

For sure, then look at it over a period of years and that CAGR compound adjusted growth rate and the numbers get gross.

That's just one bot ring. What about the break even bot rings or the ones that are making like 1-2% profit but flying under the radar. Maybe they are getting some sort of rakeback deal/kickback deal/prop deal--- promos/points/comps/etc. I am not on ACR regularly so i have no idea if this is do able or worth it.. but my point being is that it's a 15.7% rake addition AT THE BARE MINIMUM, provided the thread details are correct about this bot ring. The number could be much much much bigger.

I'm obv not debating that it is absolutely disgusting a botfarm is milking 15% out of the moneypool and of course I'd consider it crushing laying on my sofa while my bot is making me money.

My question was more on the general side: Is it still easy to make some $$ in MTT's or are the games now tougher overall + botinfested that is it really considered crushing if I beat - let's say 40$ avg BI like this botfarm - with a 15% ROI in 2024?

If that is the case then I wouldn't even start thinking about coming back to play MTTs recreationally and wasting my time.

Yes games (lowstakes) are still beatable for 30%+roi online

what do you consider as lowstakes?

Positive winrate = edge. Given MTT is zero sum, as any poker, the money they're winning has to be coming from the others winning less or losing more. Money going to players who shouldn't be there in the first place, machines, cheaters

Even if the winrate was only 3%, with a high enough infestation, which by the way seems to be the case, this is still a big problem.

Did anyone received any compensation from ACR? I withdraw all my balance and sent an email to them informing that im leaving the platform because they banned the players and didnt share the money with players who have been harmed. Maybe try to do the same

0 refunds so far. Weird thing is that there are still some bots playing despite most of them seems not playing anymore (banned probably). I expect that refunds will take some time ( I hope WPN doesn't pocket our money).

some are still playing because not all were bots. when you have a grouping of this many usernames even tho I believe most are bots a few will just be real accounts thrown in by accident.

Well I mean im not gonna defend ****ing acr of all things but not every single username listed was a bot. When your hunting bots your using incomplete information because the site holds most of the info from you. so your going to make mistakes so you find them by finding big trends. but because its a big trend Randoms do get thrown in

Not saying you're wrong, but:

1. Tyler has an excellent track record of identifying these bots and ridding them from other networks. He has literally gotten paid to do this by other networks.
2. I've yet to see anybody from this WPN list come out publicly claiming they've been wrongly accused of being a bot by Tyler. You'd think a least one person would, right?

I think it's more likely that any of the listed nicknames still playing have been overlooked by the WPN security team or snuck by a security review rather than not actually being connected to the botfarm if Tyler believes them to be bots.

Out of the entire list I reckon only 2 or 3 were more likely humans.

The ones that are still playing I agree, are more likely ones that were overlooked by ACR.

Here's my list of ones that are still playing since mid-Jan onwards:

And there are new names coming on the tables, that play nearly identical to the accounts that are gone now.

They dont do anything about the colluders.

Still no refunds to anyone that I'm aware of. Even though several accounts have disappeared from the games.

I only played here sparingly. But withdrew my balance. Will never play here again. Unless dramatic changes are made, players refunded, and they show more accountability and transparency. I strongly suggest others do the same.

Thanks, add “dermet” (blitz200)

River call is from densu1, one of the accounts I listed above ... lol

Bot malfunction, the next super user case, chip dumping.

Pick your poison, even though chip dumping can probably be ruled out, lol. Ez call

Playing for the last 2 or 3 months against some of the people in this list I am fairly confident that some of them are definitely not bots. Although I have seen a lot less names from the list in the past week I still see some and I am confident that almost all of them (the ones still active) are human.

" I've yet to see anybody from this WPN list come out publicly claiming they've been wrongly accused of being a bot by Tyler. You'd think a least one person would, right?"

Not to sound arrogant, but most of the people o nthe list that I suspect are human are clueless, and probably don't even know this site exists... I actually wouldn't be suprised if they are from the same stable and have some sort of exploitable chart against the population or some guidelines because some plays I can't see bots doing or studied regs doing them too. just my 2 cents

The bots algorithm is very strange. What types of plays have you seen them make, the ones you suspect are human

What statistical data can you point to over large samples which doesn't match up between the accounts you suspect are human and the other accounts which were almost certainly bots? What is your history with tracking and analyzing bots?

I used to track and analyze bots and pretty much every time I suspected an account to be a bot Tyler's data analysis would match up with my own confirming my suspicions. I'm not saying he can't make mistakes, but he's going to be right way more than he's wrong about these things.

Given my own experience with tracking bots I know there were several poker veterans who didn't believe me initially when I told them which accounts were bots because the accounts didn't conform to their preconceived notions of what a bot would play like, but the data doesn't lie and most were convinced what I was saying was true upon seeing my data.

I find it hard to believe anybody who is in a stable and playing on WPN is unaware of the news about a $10million dollar bot ring playing in their games. The news isn't exclusive to 2+2. It was a story on Twitter, Reddit, Discord groups, other poker forums, poker news sites and other social media. And still not a single person has come out on any platform saying they were falsely accused, not a player or an owner of any stables.