Because every player in a stable is not going to play the same exact way. If all regs are between 28-30% in one statistic, that means all regs, some of which will have very different playing styles from one another. Yet that one statistic is always between 28-30%, then somehow the list of players that are suspected of being bots just randomly happen to have this statistic around 25%. I'm pretty positive Stars doesn't have a botting issue at all, go ask a PLO reg to send you this stat for the entire player pool of slightly losing, breakeven, or winning PLO regs they're playing with on stars. Then you'll probably understand it.

It absolutely could be a massive stable of players all using the same strategy but then it would be very easy for that massive stables owner to just come in and say "Yeah, 100 of those players are in my stable"

On top of that, I'm pretty sure if you talk to any stable owner, they will quickly tell you that it is virtually impossible to get so many horses to play within such a narrow range for a stat that is already on the margins.

It is just one of those things that is really hard for humans to do, but guess what excels at it very well?

They are if their strategy is based on MDA, no? Obviously the MTT ones are profiting, are the PLO bots profiting too? Cause if they are they're clearly doing something exploitive.

Why say random? It doesn't seem random at all. There seems there are pretty good reasons for why they have such a low SD %, whether they are bots or humans they are all playing the same way.

I understand it pretty well I think, I'm still not convinced a bunch of players executing the same strategy have to be bots, but I'm open minded about it.

Wait, are you saying human bots? As in humans that are using RTA? Or do you mean a stable of humans such as a backing stable or something, where they're playing honestly?

I mean it could be people using solvers that have been nodelocked a bunch of times to exploit population tendencies, so in that case there would be a very good reason not to come forward and admit what you're doing, because it's still against the TOS. I get the logic about how hard it is for humans to do stuff, but if their strategy is a combination of solver + MDA and they have software assisting them then it wouldn't be THAT hard. This theory also includes why these 'bots' aren't committing ICM suicide in MTTs--it suggests there isn't some rote program they are running but are acting somewhat dynamically, at least in MTTs.

I definitely see the argument though and it would be more efficient to automate it.

I mean humans that are cheating using a preformed strategy and assisted by software intended to exploit the population.

If you're thinking these are stables of actual humans playing honestly, I can't explain why because I'm not the one who broke down the database or even has the list handy. I'd assume that with the PLO ones that JNandez went through he could convince you in under 5 minutes that they're bots. Same with the NL list and the MTTDatabasereview guy. There's going to be more things than just 1 statistic, could be that the "stable" is made up of a bunch of countries unlikely to be working together and somehow magically playing the same exact strategy, timings in their play, the fact they don't play a lot of hands or always quit after similar # of hands when normally people playing an unorthodox strategy and crushing would be playing tons of hours.

Again, I'm not the one who went through all this stuff but I can pretty much guarantee those 2 guys could give you stuff like that and convince you quickly with the respective lists they went through.

let's not help the the bot operators (whom are obviously reading this thread) more effectively program their bots which is what you'd effectively be doing by answering your question.
literally the second sentence of his video: "WE need to stop playing on these sites! it's a joke!" and at the end he addresses it again and leaves "if we don't change it then nothing will change it" as his closer.

what is tilting is you commenting on a video of which you either have not watched or not understood. half the video is about taking a stand and not playing on the sites which don't give anything back as well as turn a blind eye to cheating/botting.



it's great that he made a video to raise awareness on the issue but you can't deny he's left bit a bit of egg on his face by doing the opposite of what he preaches.

Right I'm sure they haven't already done many hours of thinking about how to do this. Finding out what they're doing is a pretty important first step towards stopping them, and asking questions about what they're doing is the first step in doing that, but I guess I'll just leave that to the security teams.

If you mean using solvers in game and basically playing with RTA, then I'd assume that would just fall under the 'bot' category. If you mean using a solver while studying and doing lots of nodelocking, that's not against TOS at all if you're only doing it when not playing. There's no way a stable of 10-12 players is doing this and then producing the same exact stat lines though. It's just not possible.

Most of these bot accounts are probably playing as a human some of the time too to avoid being caught. At least if they're halfway smart that's what some of them are doing I'm sure. But even an account that's playing 70% automated and 30% human, including humans taking over in deep MTT runs, it could still end up with a stat line that someone knowledgeable on the player pool can easily identify as a bot. I'm not sure whether that's true or not, but it's definitely somewhat likely. It's going to have statistical anomalies from the 70% of the time it's playing as a computer and doing complete nonsense some of the time.

Ya, you're assuming. I'm not assuming. There's a key difference. The person who asked a very pertinent question earlier about why these bots aren't committing ICM suicide is what made me question this whole bot theory in the first place. There seems to be some dynamic play happening that, unless they have solved tens of thousands of ICM spots and incorporated it into their software, remains unexplained.

I have watched the video multiple times. I know what he said in the video. The fact is he's trying to make a difference and it's common sense to anyone who knows pads or is familiar with him that it's not a realistic thing for him to just quit playing online. What's he supposed to do? Play Stars only?

How do you know that his plan isn't to make this statement, let X amount of time pass (say a month) and then follow it up with some organized boycott to sites which haven't responded well? The main point is that he's trying to make a positive difference and him being called out for playing tournaments online on Sunday is ridiculous. He's just started back up bitB, what's he supposed to do? Tell all the guys they've added on that they can't play anymore? Can only play on stars? Ignore all the more profitable games on other sites?

I'd assume from his video he tweeted out that he has some sort of follow up plan to it. What it is, I have no idea, but calling him out on playing a Sunday a few days later is ridiculous.

Edit: The people that really need to be called out are the ones like Phil Nagy and ACR pros and have them go onto some sort of live stream where this mountain full of evidence that it's extremely likely ACR is in on this whole botting thing and see how they react to it. Once all the ambassadors start leaving and action start seriously dying out, that's going to actually make a difference. The sad part is that's not going to happen. Nobody is going to force these guys into a situation like that where they're put on the spot with how obvious it is that ACR is running these bots themselves. A handful of people have already stated ITT how obvious it is, it's not a coincidence and they're not conspiracy theorists. It's just obvious. Calling these people out and forcing them to acknowledge this is what needs to happen. Not calling out pads for playing on a Sunday.

Edit #2, plus I wouldn't be surprised if Pads isn't including ACR games today. Not that it would be doing anything wrong if he was. But if he's not including ACR, then he's not really doing anything he told people not to do in that video. ACR is the only site that it was obvious he thought had a major issue. I don't think GG or Stars would be included for obvious reasons and I doubt he plays anywhere other than those 3. Maybe like 1 tourney a week on party.

human takes over when bot makes a deep run ?

That's one possibility, but that would mean these players know how to play deep in tournaments, which seems dubious to me.

Its not like they will turn off RTA when they assume control of the bot.

They would only adjust a few things, the bot can only play the final tables exactly the same way. Which might not be that profitable in certain spots.

I would think that a high % of the people using bots and especially RTA are poker players who used to be decent/good winning players at some point in the past. I'm not saying there's never been a completely clueless person who bought a poker bot and used it on a site, but I'd think that's a very small % of the bots on sites like ACR. Those ones would also probably get shut down a lot quicker than the others.

I just looked at the Sunday tournaments and it looks like nobody really cares that they are playing against cheaters. The guarantees are being met and surpassed. Seems like WPN really knows it's customer base.

bots or no bots, if i’m crushing the field, im playing

Saw the same sentiment from regs on global regarding both RTA and their weird RNG. "I don't care if it's rigged or if people are cheating, I win 15bb/100."

Can't really argue with that tbh

"Weird RNG"

Not to derail with thoughts about Global, but it certainly feels like it's juiced for action, right? Is that the experience and has anything been 'proven?'

Yep and grey hat marketing/shills never existed.

Is there evidence to support the notion that one or more of the user accounts mentioned in the original post are using bots or real-time assistance?

I got 10 royal flushes in 70k hands. Tell me the odds of that aren't 5+ SD above the mean and I'll take it back.

I mean, I can believe it. I've played online off and on for nearly 20 years and I've never seen anything like Global. It is one of those things, however, that the player pool is so soft it very well might be worth putting up with the negatives. If I lived closer than three hours from a poker room, perhaps I'd shift to just live.

Strange that I haven't seen any of these bots today. I usually see half these guys in tournaments all day every day.

new SNs