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Old 01-17-2014, 07:30 PM   #176
layemdown
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open

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Originally Posted by Tyler Durden View Post
Does Tab still post on 2p2? If so, what are his thoughts on this?

Right now he's quiet on both twitter and 2+2. Can't say as I blame him. But, he's a first class TD. Top of his profession and will comment when he feels it's the right time and knows more about what really happened. I'm sure he's somewhat embarrassed. The Borgata goes to great lengths to prevent this type of thing.
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Old 01-17-2014, 07:34 PM   #177
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open

seems like play was suspended for 24 hours. I'm not sure who said it chopped.

http://www.pokernews.com/live-report...prelim-events/
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Old 01-17-2014, 07:41 PM   #178
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open

This is what the 10-20% rake is for (no idea what it was in this particular tourney).

The rake is there to a) cover the expenses to run the tournament b) guarantee a safe and fair tournament c) profit the casino so they have incentive to run future tournaments.

The casino failed on b) and they have to make it up to the players.

A portion of the rake should be viewed as "insurance" to the players. There is a reason the WSOP ME doesn't take place in a private hall rake free. Players pay the 9% rake to ensure a safe/fair tournament.

By accepting the rake, they also have the responsibility to prevent cheaters like this.

Because of that, the casino should be responsible to make this right. Every single busted player should get a 100% refund. Players already paid should keep what they received, and the final 27 should play down for the posted prizes. All top 27 prizes should be held in Escrow for 3-6 months, and if no one is caught, then paid out.

If anyone is caught in the top 27, the casino should get to keep their money to help compensate paying out the 90% of the field that busted.
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Old 01-17-2014, 07:41 PM   #179
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open

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Originally Posted by ChipKatcher View Post
Any chance of an inside job? I saw someone else posted this I received chips that looked like the one on the right when I re entered. I thought they were weird and even said to the guy next to me these chips are really shiny and look new or weird he said they did to. Maybe someone paid to have them swapped so they could put real ones in so they were caught putting fake ones in. Didn't think anything of it because the floor gave them to me.
Preface: I have no idea if my below conclusion is even plausible based on how this tournament was ran, but hear me out.

What if the re-entry money was pocketed by the chip runners (or whoever processed the re-entry) and then they were giving out the fake chips to cover their tracks? I'm assuming that they would have an amount of chips handy to cover player re-entries, and that at the end of the day they would have to turn in the amount of money that covers the amount of re-entry chip stacks they gave out. But if they pocketed the money AND gave out the fake chips, on paper nothing would indicate that there was actually a re-entry. No money went in to the prize pool, and no legitimate tournament chips were given out. The only way it would be caught is that the number of chips in play is higher than it should be, which is exactly the case here. And what more, they would probably get away with it with a better paint job, since it seems like no one caught on to the fact that there were way more chips in play than there should be until the fake chips themselves were pointed out and examined. That is, assuming the fakes were better, would the discrepancy in the number of chips in play have been caught? I hope so for the sake of game integrity, but I doubt it would have been caught.
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Old 01-17-2014, 07:41 PM   #180
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open

no one said the chop was offcial but lots of people have posted on twitter thats the direction they are looking to go in
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Old 01-17-2014, 07:43 PM   #181
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open

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Originally Posted by TJay View Post
This is what the 10-20% rake is for (no idea what it was in this particular tourney).

The rake is there to a) cover the expenses to run the tournament b) guarantee a safe and fair tournament c) profit the casino so they have incentive to run future tournaments.

The casino failed on b) and they have to make it up to the players.

A portion of the rake should be viewed as "insurance" to the players. There is a reason the WSOP ME doesn't take place in a private hall rake free. Players pay the 9% rake to ensure a safe/fair tournament.

By accepting the rake, they also have the responsibility to prevent cheaters like this.

Because of that, the casino should be responsible to make this right. Every single busted player should get a 100% refund. Players already paid should keep what they received, and the final 27 should play down for the posted prizes. All top 27 prizes should be held in Escrow for 3-6 months, and if no one is caught, then paid out.

If anyone is caught in the top 27, the casino should get to keep their money to help compensate paying out the 90% of the field that busted.
Couldn't agree more. And no not just saying this cuz I lost 2k.

Why pay the extra rake and fees if its not even a legit tourney?

Borgata would make its losses back in 1 week.
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Old 01-17-2014, 07:45 PM   #182
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open

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Originally Posted by Randal_Graves View Post


Pic from twitter
This never happens in online tournaments!

It depends on how good their eyes in the sky are. If they are somewhat decent quality cameras, with the chips being that obvious then they may be able to find who did this. If the cameras suck then it will not happen and Borgata might have to eat a few million and refund everyone.

The biggest problem is there are so many people. Since there are some very respectable people with a ton of inside information, and many less respected people who are known to do anything for an edge, the list of major suspects to watch first.

Switching tables or at the start of a new day is when the cheaters are most likely to have added to their stack, obviously.

It is sad to hear that that so many dealers were goobers. The mistake should have been caught much earlier in the tournament. Any halfway decent dealer should have been able to pick up on the different 5K chips.
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Old 01-17-2014, 07:45 PM   #183
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open

Quote:
Originally Posted by TJay View Post
This is what the 10-20% rake is for (no idea what it was in this particular tourney).

The rake is there to a) cover the expenses to run the tournament b) guarantee a safe and fair tournament c) profit the casino so they have incentive to run future tournaments.

The casino failed on b) and they have to make it up to the players.

A portion of the rake should be viewed as "insurance" to the players. There is a reason the WSOP ME doesn't take place in a private hall rake free. Players pay the 9% rake to ensure a safe/fair tournament.

By accepting the rake, they also have the responsibility to prevent cheaters like this.

Because of that, the casino should be responsible to make this right. Every single busted player should get a 100% refund. Players already paid should keep what they received, and the final 27 should play down for the posted prizes. All top 27 prizes should be held in Escrow for 3-6 months, and if no one is caught, then paid out.

If anyone is caught in the top 27, the casino should get to keep their money to help compensate paying out the 90% of the field that busted.
agree. They should pay top 27 something now though and then pay the rest after a full evaluation of what happened
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Old 01-17-2014, 07:48 PM   #184
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open

What needs to be done here:

1) Chop now; advantage over playing out as this is not ending on specified day and people have schedules. What if someone can't make it now? Or has to
miss some important work meeting or vacation or something?
2) Withdrawal payment of remaining players until they have been cleared
3) Refund everyone who did not cash

Yeah #3 sucks for Borgata. But they need to do better. And it's probably in their best interest. Their extra money coming in from Borgata.com should cover it.
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Old 01-17-2014, 07:49 PM   #185
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open

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Originally Posted by layemdown View Post
seems like play was suspended for 24 hours. I'm not sure who said it chopped.

http://www.pokernews.com/live-report...prelim-events/
I don't think anyone ITT said it chopped. We we're discussing wether or not it'd make sense for them to chop.
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Old 01-17-2014, 07:50 PM   #186
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open

This reminds me of that old poker proverb. "A Counterfeit Chip, A Chair and an Over Card."
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Old 01-17-2014, 07:53 PM   #187
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open

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agree. They should pay top 27 something now though and then pay the rest after a full evaluation of what happened
I don't think it's legal for the Borgata to do anything right now. They must get gaming involved and ultimately, NJ Casino Control may make some concession to the states poker pay out law. This is a really tough situation because the game's integrity has been compromised and the Borgata has their hands tied by law.
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Old 01-17-2014, 07:54 PM   #188
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open

If the tapes implicate anyone I hope there is prosecution and not just barring.
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Old 01-17-2014, 07:55 PM   #189
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open

Isn't it more likely that incompetent floor people issued too many chips during the flurry of rebuys and what have you than there being counterfeits?
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Old 01-17-2014, 07:59 PM   #190
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I was booked to go down this weekend for 2 events. I'm gonna pass.
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Old 01-17-2014, 07:59 PM   #191
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open

This reminds me of another scamming old man who rebought the hand before a break and came back from the break and his chips were gone. I sware he probably whipped that stack out later in the tourney.
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Old 01-17-2014, 08:00 PM   #192
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open

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Originally Posted by MaxRhino View Post
Isn't it more likely that incompetent floor people issued too many chips during the flurry of rebuys and what have you than there being counterfeits?
No, not when they say they found counterfeits

Many years ago there was a color up incident at the WSOP. But this is different.
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Old 01-17-2014, 08:01 PM   #193
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open

so is everyone who is saying refund also saying that money should be refunded to all who did not cash if the players are caught in the next 24 hours?

What if an underage player entered the tournament and was chip leader at this stage of the tournament when they some how figure out he is underage. Obviously they would DQ him from the tournament, but his influence on the events prior would obviously be very significant (butterfly effect). Should all players be refunded in that event as well?

It's a slippery slope, and just like when stars caught underage players winning large tournaments before, they moved everyone up a spot. They did not refund the entire field.

I think they should play the tournament out, and I also think they should pay out winners accordingly and not hold. Is it fair to them when everyone else up to this point was paid promptly? They are being penalized for something in all likelihood they had nothing to do with (again reports started about this before day 2 and 800 remaining players).

Also, maybe Borgata in an effort to save face should offer those who played a $500k freeroll or something at the beginning of next series, or at the completion of this series. Just a thought...
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Old 01-17-2014, 08:02 PM   #194
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open

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Originally Posted by MaxRhino View Post
Isn't it more likely that incompetent floor people issued too many chips during the flurry of rebuys and what have you than there being counterfeits?
Chips are usually counted every night. They easily know if there are counterfeit chips in play. It's all simple math on that score. They only own a certain number of 5K chips. I have to assume that it was obvious fake chips or the tournament would never have been stopped. They wouldn't know they had too many chips in play at any given time until the nightly count. It had to be a spotted fake.
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Old 01-17-2014, 08:06 PM   #195
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open

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Originally Posted by ZenForest View Post
I hope the cheaters get BANNED FOR LIFE from ANY Casino !

Regardless of who they turn out to be, and who they know in the Poker World.

Time for an end to "slap on the wrist" punishments and 2nd chances for cheaters in the Poker World.

I hear Mike Sexton advocating dress codes at Final Tables, so that we may be taken more seriously by corporate sponsors.......We need to 1st police ourselves better, and not be so tolerant of scumbags and cheaters in this industry......otherwise, it's all for not.
Hallelujah Zen!

When I posted sentiments like this during previous cheating scandals, (e.g. Doc Sands during the recent WSOP Main Event - not to mention all the online cheating), I was met with a lot of "Meh!" and stony silence. I had the distinct feeling that I was whistling in the wind and nobody gave a sh*t.

Now that the cheating suddenly affects 4,800+ people - and 27 probably very unhappy close-to-the-final-table players - people seem to suddenly care about the cheating problem.

Not that I agree with Sheldon Adelson on anything, (including dropping nuclear bombs in the desert over in Iran), but as long as the poker industry looks the other way and continues to coddle these cheaters, I will be encouraging my elected representatives NOT to legalize internet poker in the United States. That's my bottom line for supporting the legalization of internet poker. The casino industry has to crack down - and crack down hard - on cheaters and cheating. Until I see famous cheaters (like Men the Master) being prosecuted and sentenced to hard jail time, we're just as well off with no poker at all.

Broken Back Alan of Huntsville
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Old 01-17-2014, 08:09 PM   #196
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open

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No, not when they say they found counterfeits

Many years ago there was a color up incident at the WSOP. But this is different.
Did borgata itself say there are counterfeits or is that just a presumption that ran out if control when people realized the count discrepancy?
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Old 01-17-2014, 08:12 PM   #197
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open

No one should feel sorry for borgata or say they should not pay out refunds truth is it's their responsibility. I'll be skipping the next series in favor of harrahs Philly. They may lose their wpt sponsorship too there's a lot of things at stake idk how much the wpt sponsorship is worth .
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Old 01-17-2014, 08:13 PM   #198
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I played in this tournament and I joked in the other thread "i want a refund". In reality I dont want a refund. I feel bad for the 27 players left (of course if they didnt cheat)

Its just upsetting that I pay $60 along with everyone else (nearly $300k on fees...if rebuys paid $60?!?) to ensure that dealers are competent (as others have said LOL...i understand its a big tournament but some of my dealers were horrific) and that the tournament is secure.

I spent 8 hrs playing day 1 (busted out near last level) and now I find out I may have been cheated. It just stinks.
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Old 01-17-2014, 08:13 PM   #199
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open

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Originally Posted by doublejoker View Post
Guy at my table is in the chip industry. He said no major venue should use sticker chips. Too easy to counterfeit.

Can buy the base chip and make your own sticker quite easily according to him.
I know it is very costly, but I don't understand how tourneys use the same chips for 5, 6 or even 10 yeas... They should have 3 different sets, use different ones randomly... Borgata ME have had the same chops for the last 6 or 7 years... Same is true with other venues too...
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Old 01-17-2014, 08:15 PM   #200
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open

I don't think there is any doubt that NJ will arrest anyone viewed on tape adding fake chips. Lets just hope surveillance can see it. They'll be looking with many eyes all night. The Borgata and Gaming won't stop with throwing the book at em. This/these guys will get the entire library just like a fast ball.
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