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Old 01-21-2014, 03:12 PM   #1376
ChicagoRy
 
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

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Originally Posted by pokervangelist View Post
Christian Lusardi who was day 1bc chip leader with more than 70% chips over prior day 1a chip leader needs to be looked at very closely. No real cashes in any prior tournaments and was caught running illegal gambling house http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/3684348/. More interesting he took down his Facebook page right after the tournament was suspended
I still think you're witch hunting a bit.

The only thing that you told us that makes him look suspicious is that he was a big chip leader early on when the chips were supposedly introduced.

This is all fairly moot, the casino should have far better cameras in a situation like this, especially without better on the floor training (dealers, procedures).

Hopefully I'm speaking premature and it's just not public yet that they are going after the individuals involved.

Edit: If you're sure he took down his fb page after the tourney was suspended, and not after you published his name in this thread, then that would also be worth looking into as well. The gambling house thing I think is irrelevant, even if the house took rake (Unless he was accused of stealing from players or something along those lines).
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Old 01-21-2014, 03:12 PM   #1377
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

Although the discussion of RFID chips and RFID readers at tables is interesting from a technical perspective and something that should continue to be explored, it's probably not feasible yet.

Reading every chip throughout all transactions during a tournament would be expensive, complicated and prone to error. Might as well just get rid of chips completely.

A better short term solution might be to use RFID chips to supplement/verify human chip counts at end of day and table changes as well as counting all chips in play. It would also help identify counterfeit chips. RFID tags aren't that expensive. The biggest expense would be the chips themselves.

Additionally access points to the tournament area can have exit scanners like most retailers do to minimize chips leaving and entering the tournament area. Bags would have to be prohibited. Maybe coats checked if something seems bulky. Women with large breasts would have to pass through topless. No. Not really. But how awesome would that be? Well, if you're not a woman that is.

People would still be able to smuggle out chips but not in large quantities and casinos can be made aware of how many and which chips are missing.

It's not foolproof but it minimizes some risk at a reasonable cost. Dealer, floor and even players would also need to be vigilant and able to report suspicious activity.
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Old 01-21-2014, 03:17 PM   #1378
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

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Originally Posted by EvilGreebo View Post
I don't think you're grasping how my proposed solution would work - and I'm not sure you're correct on the ability of RFID scanners to scan multiple tags at once either. No power passive tags can run as cheap as $0.15/tag. That would make the chips more expensive, yes, but the chips don't exactly wear out anytime soon either.

http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/Techno....asp?ArtNum=20
yes I do get it and will defer to you on RFID tech because you obv know this stuff.

But remember this is licensed, regulated casino industry. that .15/tag once integrated with casino chip and then delivered through a licensed provider in a regulated market adds a lot of costs. I have no idea how much the readers cost.

As you or someone else said above, you would not have to RFID all chips, just maybe larger denoms???

So the system you envision would be more preventive measure to quickly identify any fake chips, more than a system that tracks movement of chips hand by hand, correct?
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Old 01-21-2014, 03:25 PM   #1379
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This should be the death of re-entry tournaments with this travesty that happened at the Borgata. I've been in the poker industry for 7 years as a player, dealer, and floor manager.

Ultimately the cheaters and the Borgata are to blame for this. We all basically know why the cheaters are to blame, but there are some interesting points to bring to why the Borgata is to blame.

A lot of this is really redundant, but first off, the staffing process needs to change. I chose not to play this year at the open mainly for the reason of incompetent dealers at the event. The horror stories of dealers not knowing how to put out a board or know what a winning hand is is ridiculous. Is it really that hard to have a few days for small auditions just to prove you know what you're doing?

Second, the re-entry process needs an overhaul. I would say if you have multiple starting days and you start day 1A for example and you want to play in day 1B, your stack for day 1A becomes null and void.

Small things such as verifying chips at the end of a day, accurately keeping an inventory of the chips you use in a business day can go a long way to maintain the integrity of a tournament. Also, switch the chip sets when the fields are consolidated. These small jobs go a long way.

I read a lot about using RFID technology in chip sets, which sounds good in a vacuum, but I'm afraid that the capitalistic mindset of casinos, who want that profit margin on the rise all the time, will prevent that. If that happens, or any added security functions come, expect a rise in rake.

Basically I'm saying that the cheaters are scumbags and the true justice will never be done, yet Borgata was very very lazy in doing basic daily functions to protect the integrity of the game, especially in a tournament of this magnitude.
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Old 01-21-2014, 03:26 PM   #1380
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

I'm surprised with the cameras lacking there hasn't been any big problems in the event center two guys all in dealer puts flop out and thinks hand is over and mucks flop and no one can remember flop or dealer over pays someone. I dunno I feel like in cash game cameras are called once a day on something.
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Old 01-21-2014, 03:28 PM   #1381
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

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Originally Posted by 42-2KM View Post
In one case, I was sent to a table that was already broken up AND there were two plastic crates of tournament chips sitting on that table with no dealer or floor person attending to them.

In the ballroom they won't be able to review cameras as there are very few of them and unless the Borgata has invested in some expensive equipment, cameras four stories up in the ballroom rafters are not going to yield too much detailed information.
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Originally Posted by MaxRhino View Post
Did borgata itself say there are counterfeits or is that just a presumption that ran out if control when people realized the count discrepancy?
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Originally Posted by JustASpectator View Post
Preface: I have no idea if my below conclusion is even plausible based on how this tournament was ran, but hear me out.

What if the re-entry money was pocketed by the chip runners (or whoever processed the re-entry) and then they were giving out the fake chips to cover their tracks? I'm assuming that they would have an amount of chips handy to cover player re-entries, and that at the end of the day they would have to turn in the amount of money that covers the amount of re-entry chip stacks they gave out. But if they pocketed the money AND gave out the fake chips, on paper nothing would indicate that there was actually a re-entry. No money went in to the prize pool, and no legitimate tournament chips were given out. The only way it would be caught is that the number of chips in play is higher than it should be, which is exactly the case here.
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Originally Posted by MaxRhino View Post
Isn't it more likely that incompetent floor people issued too many chips during the flurry of rebuys and what have you than there being counterfeits?
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Originally Posted by Polarized Mike View Post
At best we will only see more controls put in place, probable higher fees, capped player fields and/or reduced pay-outs.

.
I think the Borgata is really the most likely culprit in this matter and inadvertantly introduced said chips into game. So far in reading this thread I have found no definitive proof that said chips are counterfeits. Lot's of pics of shonky looking chips but no proof they are actual counterfeits.
RFID chips for the most part would eliminate this sort of scam, or at least help to narrow down when they were introduced into play. Security at tournament site seems sketchy at best. Best of luck to all involved. I imagine this event will be a wake up call to the industry and can only hope something good will come out of it.
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Old 01-21-2014, 03:32 PM   #1382
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

Getting close to the end of day and Player A has 300K in chips. Player B has 210K. Knowing that the end of day chip leader gets $2K cash, these players get it all in against each other and Player A wins and now has 510K. That's a 70% increase in total chips in one hand. Why is it so hard for people to think that's unreasonable for this Lusardi character?
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Old 01-21-2014, 03:35 PM   #1383
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

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Originally Posted by PTLou View Post
yes I do get it and will defer to you on RFID tech because you obv know this stuff.

But remember this is licensed, regulated casino industry. that .15/tag once integrated with casino chip and then delivered through a licensed provider in a regulated market adds a lot of costs. I have no idea how much the readers cost.

As you or someone else said above, you would not have to RFID all chips, just maybe larger denoms???

So the system you envision would be more preventive measure to quickly identify any fake chips, more than a system that tracks movement of chips hand by hand, correct?
I've posted this previously but my idea is to detect fake chips only as players join and leave a table using scales and scanners in tandem.

There is no need to do it on every bet, every hand. When you check in on day 1 you start with X chips that weigh a known amount. When you move to another table you check out of table 1 with Y chips, and check IN to table 2 with Y chips. At either point, if the # of chips you check out with (counted by scanner) don't match the weight (known by chip weight * scanner count) then we have to stop action and investigate the whole table. Otherwise you go to table 2 with Y chips.

At end of day, all players check out and the total # of chips on the table should be exactly known by the table.

It's a basic check register algorithm. Table balance = sum of all additions to the table - sum of all withdrawals from the table.
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Old 01-21-2014, 03:36 PM   #1384
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

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Originally Posted by MicroRoller View Post
Although the discussion of RFID chips and RFID readers at tables is interesting from a technical perspective and something that should continue to be explored, it's probably not feasible yet.

Reading every chip throughout all transactions during a tournament would be expensive, complicated and prone to error. Might as well just get rid of chips completely.

A better short term solution might be to use RFID chips to supplement/verify human chip counts at end of day and table changes as well as counting all chips in play.
Golly gee if only someone had suggested that notion...
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Old 01-21-2014, 03:45 PM   #1385
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

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Originally Posted by paigowtommy View Post
Getting close to the end of day and Player A has 300K in chips. Player B has 210K. Knowing that the end of day chip leader gets $2K cash, these players get it all in against each other and Player A wins and now has 510K. That's a 70% increase in total chips in one hand. Why is it so hard for people to think that's unreasonable for this Lusardi character?
Is that factual?
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Old 01-21-2014, 03:53 PM   #1386
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

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Originally Posted by obviously.bogus View Post
I'm not going to speculate as to how or why some of these numbers are so far off, but its clear, based on "official counts" (from WSOP.com) that a total tally of chips in play is not a reliable way of detecting if counterfeit chips have been introduced.

WSOP 2013

Wtf! Check out event #49

like 500Kish too many chips. Imbroglio imo
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Old 01-21-2014, 03:58 PM   #1387
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Tbh, the last WSOP I flew out to play was in 2009. But, I do remember that when changing tables to a distant area (like not from Amazon 120's to Amazon 140's, but any time I was moved to a whole other vicinity) I was escorted there by a floor and required to have my chips in a rack. They may have stopped doing that but that was the routine in 2009.
Now when you change rooms your chips are bagged up and sealed at WSOP. Still doesn't mean you can't slip some chips out of your pocket into your stack while everyone is opening their bags.
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Old 01-21-2014, 03:59 PM   #1388
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

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Originally Posted by EvilGreebo View Post
Golly gee if only someone had suggested that notion...
i've mainly been scanning this thread to see if any news came out about suspects and haven't paid close attention to the RFiD conversation (if there's no reference to boobs people don't pay attention) but it sounded to me like you were talking about constantly monitoring chips at the table. Otherwise why would you need the scale too? it seems unnecessary. Someone could just count chips and verify it matches up with scan.
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Old 01-21-2014, 04:00 PM   #1389
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Originally Posted by BellasDaddy716 View Post
If all the tables had the computer system, then maybe a possible solution would be to Swipe players at their respective tables when the tournament starts. Each player will register in the system as having x chips (starting stack). When a player busts, remove him/her from the table just as you would a cash game, noting that they are leaving with 0 chips. If the player moves to a different table, do a quick count of the chips and note it in the system. When that same player gets to their next table they are swiped, and another chip count is done and noted in the system. If there is a discrepancy - red flag, floor clears it up.

Break time, while the dealers are essentially doing nothing but suiting up the cards, they count the stacks. The system should keep a constant accounting of how many chips are in play at the table, verified during every break.

End of night, all counts are verified. I don't think this is impossible to do in a small tourney when they can use the tables that have the technology. Seems like it would be easy software to put together.

Tedious and annoying for sure.
They tried a similar system to this at WSOP 2012. It failed miserably. Dealers couldn't be bothered to do anything and had no idea how to work the tablets they were given. In addition, the Internet connection they were using to keep track wasn't good enough to keep the whole thing online.
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Old 01-21-2014, 04:02 PM   #1390
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

I think all of this talk about chip sensors and weighing bags etc. etc. is pretty unrealistic for all tournaments to do. I think there is a greater chance that players are going to catch players cheating and there should be a number that we could text/call to report any suspicious behavior. There also needs to be really stiff penalties to deter people from trying anything like this again... Hopefully the culprits here are made an example of
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Old 01-21-2014, 04:11 PM   #1391
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

Thanks for the response, pninwin. It sounds like you kept a cool head together.

How long do you folks think the community should give the DGE to complete the investigation and pay the 27 and allow Borgata to make restitution to the rest of the field (if any) before some attorney files a class action suit for the benefit of the players? Another week, month, year?
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Old 01-21-2014, 04:12 PM   #1392
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

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Originally Posted by Wilbury Twist View Post
Emphasis mine.

Grunching a bit (I've only read up to post #1134) but I'm not 100 percent sure there would be a weight difference, even though I mentioned that myself in a previous post.

Based on the photo that Mr. Edwards posted, it seems the phony chip could easily have been a real Paulson, painted and given a fake inlay to resemble the real ones. After all, the off-colored chip has the same molding. If so, the weight difference would be none to negligible.

But you're right on the rest. I'm not sure about the actual color (specularity changes the way an object photographs) but they certainly didn't shell out a few extra bucks for the Krylon matte vs. semi-gloss paint. Definitely amateur hour.
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Originally Posted by TeamEdwardsPros View Post
This chip wasn't sparkly at all. It was almost chrome looking. I saw the freshly cut sparkly ones. This wasn't it. It stood out like a silver quarter in a handful of pennies. It was lot lighter, I know because Luis Guittierez held it up against other chips with his eyes closed and could pick it out. Makes me wonder why after I posted the picture why I got trolled pretty hard by one individual who was irate of me posting this picture. His name was joseph mojo Conti from what I read up. I've informed tab, who I won the pot off of, the troll (mojo) and what time I took the photo. God speed to my buddy big nick who is currently 2nd in chips!
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Old 01-21-2014, 04:13 PM   #1393
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

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Originally Posted by GotJax View Post
Wtf! Check out event #49

like 500Kish too many chips. Imbroglio imo
Actually, it appears in that case to be more to do with the inaccuracy of the "Updates" on WSOP.com. It looks like one player's stack was wildly off.

I'll try to do some analysis on the "reports" which I think may be a little more "official".
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Old 01-21-2014, 04:22 PM   #1394
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

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Originally Posted by TrustInBrass_KAOS View Post
It's not possible to do a full legal brief on NVG of all the aspects of gaming law, criminal law, and tort law that this clusterf**** entails.

...

There are real legal issues raised here, but it appears that whatever the Borgata and the Gaming Commission agree to do about them will be more or less final.

Hope this helps inject some facts into this speculation train
Thanks for taking the time to compile this.
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Old 01-21-2014, 04:22 PM   #1395
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

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Originally Posted by ChasinScrila View Post
Thanks for the response, pninwin. It sounds like you kept a cool head together.

How long do you folks think the community should give the DGE to complete the investigation and pay the 27 and allow Borgata to make restitution to the rest of the field (if any) before some attorney files a class action suit for the benefit of the players? Another week, month, year?
EXCELLENT QUESTION!
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Old 01-21-2014, 04:27 PM   #1396
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

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Originally Posted by ChasinScrila View Post
Thanks for the response, pninwin. It sounds like you kept a cool head together.

How long do you folks think the community should give the DGE to complete the investigation and pay the 27 and allow Borgata to make restitution to the rest of the field (if any) before some attorney files a class action suit for the benefit of the players? Another week, month, year?
In my mind a swift resolution involves arrests in the next week, some sort of comprehensive DGE report in a month, some sort of resolution/ruling in 6 to 8 weeks, and a nice check from the Borgata in 3 months. Maybe I am in fantasyland to think things could move so quickly(and justly). right now not even thinking about getting a lawyer but i'll be watching keenly what the other players are up to and be willing to join in when the time is right

Last edited by pninwin; 01-21-2014 at 04:34 PM.
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Old 01-21-2014, 04:29 PM   #1397
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

Does anyone have a picture of the fraudulent chip? I have seen the photo of the 3 gray ones against the silver one. I cannot fathom the silver is fake! I played on a table with at least 20 or 30 of these so called fraudulent chips.
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Old 01-21-2014, 04:32 PM   #1398
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

i've got to say i've been depositing most of my poker winnings for the last year in a savings account for future home purchase. i live off my income from job as mail carrier. some of the other players (i don't know how many) were pros who simply needed to get paid. if they were irate and seeking an immediate resolution i do not view this as a character flaw on their part
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Old 01-21-2014, 04:41 PM   #1399
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

Quote:
Originally Posted by VP$IP View Post
In the world of Incident Analysis, these are some Contributing Factors:
  1. One or more cheaters introduced counterfeit chips
  2. Borgata already had two slightly different 5k chip colors
  3. Chip counts were not independently verified at the end of the day
  4. Chip counts were not independently verified before and after table changes
  5. Some dealers could not differentiate between real and fake chips
  6. There was incomplete video surveillance in some playing areas
These are the factors I think about. This is what a judge/jury can understand.

Again, thanks for putting this list together.
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Old 01-21-2014, 04:42 PM   #1400
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Re: Borgata Floor Finds Tons of Counterfeit 5k Chips in Event 1 Winter Poker Open - Cancels eve

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Originally Posted by Allworld23 View Post
Does anyone have a picture of the fraudulent chip? I have seen the photo of the 3 gray ones against the silver one. I cannot fathom the silver is fake! I played on a table with at least 20 or 30 of these so called fraudulent chips.
Here are the regular chips:

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