Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT*

01-21-2014 , 12:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjnid
Im playing saturday in the 350+50...

wonder if I made a joke chip protector chip that said Borgata 100 Trillion if I could possibly get in any kind of trouble...

obv no one would with a brain would care, but....
Somehow I don't think they would be happy with you right now...
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-21-2014 , 12:48 AM
oh also the plaintiffs also show that they were actually damaged by borg's negligence, which would be really hard considering how many runners the mtt got and the likely number of cheaters.
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-21-2014 , 12:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan C. Lawhon
pninwin:

There will definitely be arrests. These morons have messed with the one thing that really matters to the state of New Jersey: The public's confidence in the safety and integrity of the games these casinos offer. This is comparable to the moment in the movie "Network" when Ned Beatty's character explains to Howard Beale how the world really works and Beale thinks he has just been struck with a revelation from God.

To make a solid case, the prosecutors are going to have to get one of the horses to roll over on the ring leader. They'll have to cut a deal with one or more of the minor players in this scam in order to nail the ring leader. They'll determine which one of the "minnows" they have the most evidence against and hit him or her with enough charges to make him or her poop their pants. Once he/she is sufficiently freaked out, they'll offer a deal: In exchange for your full and complete testimony - including testifying against your accomplices under oath in court - we'll accept a plea of guilty to a single charge and recommend to the judge that you receive a light sentence. (This is exactly how the federal government goes after top-level Mafiosi - they "persuade" the underlings to rat out their bosses. That's how they finally nailed John Gotti - they got Sammy "The Bull" Gravano to turn on his boss.)

One of the minnows will surely rat out his fellow cheaters. The real target is going to be the ring leader. The state of New Jersey (and the entire B&M industry) is going to be looking to nail his a** to the cross. You can count on it.
thx for the response, i hope you are right
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-21-2014 , 12:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan C. Lawhon
Depending on the severity (and cost) of any new security regulations imposed on the operators by the various state GCBs, this could kill large event - or even mid-size event - MTTs. Imagine this: The New Jersey GCB issues strict new regulations to the Borgata (and other New Jersey operators) dictating that dealers for large-field tournaments must demonstrate a certain minimum level of competence and proficiency. (This might mean that poker dealers must have attended a dealers school and passed a licensing exam before they are allowed to deal in a large-field tournament event.) That requirement would raise the cost of running these events. Requiring tournament chips to have RFID chips embedded within each tournament chip will also add cost. Formally instituting some of the other anti-cheating measures that have been mentioned in this thread will also increase the cost (and reduce the profits) of running these events.

If the operators decide: "Well, it's no big deal. We'll just raise the tournament entry fee enough to cover the added cost and it will be business as usual." I don't know about you, but there's no way in hell I'm going to enter a $500 buy-in tournament with a $150 entry fee.
right on target here. if things get tougher for the casinos then they'll get tougher (costlier) for the players
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-21-2014 , 01:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan C. Lawhon
CT007:

Very good points - especially the bolded. This is why I believe the New Jersey GCB is going to come down really hard on the Borgata. The state will impose a stiff fine and/or an enforcement action that sends a clear message to all New Jersey operators. The "message" will roughly equate to: "Don't ever let this happen again!"

From the state's perspective this is about protecting the steady flow of tax revenues emanating from the casinos. Anything that brings into question the integrity (or "fairness") of the games threatens the flow of all that tax money. Politicians in states like New Jersey, Mississippi, and Nevada would much rather have people handing over their "taxes" voluntarily rather than having to go on record voting for a tax increase that pi**es voters off - like they do here in my state of Alabama.

The dilemma though is what happens in the aftermath of a draconian DGE enforcement action imposed on the Borgata? Other operators, fearing that the same type of calamity could befall them, will (presumably) tighten up security procedures and (hopefully) crack down on cheaters. Poker cheats - and suspected poker cheats - should be treated the same way blackjack cheats are treated ... barred and (occasionally) taken out in the alley and beaten to within an inch of their lives. (If a thief walked up to you on the street, pulled a knife or a gun and demanded your money - "Or else!" - wouldn't that person be deserving of swift and sure justice? Poker cheats are no different ... every one of them ought to be hung.

The problem is that "cracking down" on all these cheaters will cost money and the casino's profits (from poker) are not that great - compared to all the other games they offer. If the cost of ensuring game integrity and weeding out the cheaters exceeds poker room profits, the operators will say "To hell with poker!" and that will be that. The operators will close the poker rooms.

Maybe the solution to this problem is that we poker players will have to help the operators weed out the cheaters. One way to do this might be for honest poker players to act collectively as a group. How might this work? If a known cheater, (like for instance, Russ Hamilton or Men the Master), walks into a poker room and buys chips; all players immediately make it clear to the floor and the poker room manager "If you don't eject this cheater right now, we're all getting up and leaving. There's another poker room next door and we would rather play there than be forced to sit and play with this thief!" (Word should also be spread quickly to all the recreational players who might not be aware that they are in the presence of a known poker cheat.) By proactively acting to protect the game, the vast majority of honest poker players will be acting to help save the game.
people need to understand that 1000s of these types of tournaments have been run across the country (consider how big the 200 deep stacks even are at the rio - 1000 + runners every day, 40k prize pool - significant money) and this is the first major scandal to occur....the controls the wsop puts in place are very similar. they have some very poorly trained dealers and you can walk a pretty far distance when changing tables.

if you are a professional player or someone who wants to be, you really don't want the casinos placed in a situation where they have to put in expensive controls or spend big money on extra staff. Having a small amount of cheating is better than paying double the rake every tournament you play. People might say they don't agree with that, but if your someone who plays a ton of tournaments the rake cost would be much much more.

So, I'm just being realistic. People need to realize how many similar events like this have occurred without a scandal.

Yeah, some simple reforms need to be made. Maybe better chips sets and making the dealers more involved in the bagging process. But it does not have to cost a fortune to fix things a bit.

And regulators should understand that due to the nature of poker tournaments the casino cannot be held responsible for every single bit of cheating that occurs.
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-21-2014 , 01:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aoresteen
My understanding it was a million $$ in chip VALUE not an actual million extra chips. Small point but some may be confused. If all the fake chips were $5K that means that there were an extra 200 physical chips that were slipped in. I doubt one person could carry in 200 clay chips and no one would notice. Got to be a ring of players involved, maybe with some inside help.
I nominate this for POTY.
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-21-2014 , 01:23 AM
I just hope after this is resolved, the future "EVENT 1'S" have better dealers with proper training. I have played in a bunch of these huge opening events and imo the dealers have gotten worse and worse. From what has been described by people on here as well as friends I have spoken with, I think I would have gone crazy with all the mistakes and 5-6 hands per 35-40 minutes. I mean, how can any sane tournament player focus when mistake after mistake after mistake keeps happening???? Add to that dealers that expose cards, can't get pots right and move at a snails pace and you got 1 extremely crappy experience regardless of the guarantee amount.

PS - Oh that's right, I didn't mention the 3 hour lines to buy in for another day 1 or the 45+ min just to reenter on the same day 1.

The whole thing definitely needs some adjustments.
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-21-2014 , 01:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habman
. Quote:
Originally Posted by SoBi88
...With this lack of oversight and understaffing...
To the lawyers in the forum, would this be considered negligence?o the lawyers in the forum, would this be considered negligence?
Even if they were understaffed, they caught the cheating, there may be no proximate cause. The cheating is likely an intervening cause or an intervening criminal act which could relieve the negligent party's liability.
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-21-2014 , 01:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by djz
...i also think they are the best poker room i've ever played in though i don't play live mtts...

...there is also a decent chance that the entrants waived away their ability to sue when they played the tourney...

...the judge would probably not be sympathetic to the players since they're gambling and that's immoral...

...the players assume risk when they enter a tournament that someone will cheat...

...many judges will just assume casino poker is full of cheating...

Are you for real??????????????

Will a real lawyer please stand up?
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-21-2014 , 01:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aoresteen
I doubt one person could carry in 200 clay chips and no one would notice.
Don't underestimate Men the Master buddy - he'd swallow 2000 chips and **** them out just to get any kind of edge.
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-21-2014 , 01:35 AM
I think a simple question is would you rather pay double the rake and cut all cheating to a bare minimum or keep the rake the same and maybe have the small amount of cheating that occurs today?? I think as a serious player the rake consideration is way more important

(and when i say small amount of cheating im obviously not referring to a situation where counterfeit chips are used - this rises above that standard)

(I don't know, but i assume every tournament series across the country has a small amount of cheating - in terms of chips being snuck in from other (usually smaller tournaments)
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-21-2014 , 01:37 AM
it would be interesting if someone were to analyze reported chip counts for the final tables of major live tournaments to see how often there's a discrepancy between the reported number of chips in play and what it should be based on the number of entrants.
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-21-2014 , 01:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjnid
you know when you type a dirty porn phrase into google, it stops auto complete guessing what you're going to type as to not display the filth???

try typing in men the master and see what happens...
So.. you're saying Men the Master has porn and the search for it is being suppressed
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-21-2014 , 01:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyAggassi
people need to understand that 1000s of these types of tournaments have been run across the country (consider how big the 200 deep stacks even are at the rio - 1000 + runners every day, 40k prize pool - significant money) and this is the first major scandal to occur....the controls the wsop puts in place are very similar. they have some very poorly trained dealers and you can walk a pretty far distance when changing tables.

if you are a professional player or someone who wants to be, you really don't want the casinos placed in a situation where they have to put in expensive controls or spend big money on extra staff. Having a small amount of cheating is better than paying double the rake every tournament you play. People might say they don't agree with that, but if your someone who plays a ton of tournaments the rake cost would be much much more.

So, I'm just being realistic. People need to realize how many similar events like this have occurred without a scandal.

Yeah, some simple reforms need to be made. Maybe better chips sets and making the dealers more involved in the bagging process. But it does not have to cost a fortune to fix things a bit.

And regulators should understand that due to the nature of poker tournaments the casino cannot be held responsible for every single bit of cheating that occurs.
Tend to agree with the gist of your post. (Although, regarding how this almost never happens... we all know not all cheating is caught... in fact I would say these particular cheaters were more inept than most.)

So the casinos definitely have a responsibility to make the games as "cheat-proof" as possible, within reason. Many of these things would cost little or no money and would not have to increase the rake. Perhaps limiting field sizes, training dealers/floor persons to spot fakes better, randomly switching chip designs for bigger tourneys, etc.

But yes unfortunately there will always be scumbags in gambling and therefore probably impossible to expect all cheating to be eradicated 100%.
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-21-2014 , 01:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drrr.Gonzo
An excuse to to raise the rake, you watch

Sent from my SGH-T999L using 2+2 Forums
This. People asking for RFID, extra staff, etc., how do you expect to make money playing poker when those are added and the rake in every tourney is 20%
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-21-2014 , 01:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FRYTWO

lololol
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-21-2014 , 01:57 AM
If this is going to be a lengthy "investigation", then I really think paying the final 27 at least some cash is the right thing to do. I'm having a hard time understanding why they shouldn't at least be given 27th place money each while this matter is investigated. This would be the one issue that I could see involving lawyers as time drags on.

Other players in the same event have been paid after cashing for lesser amounts. If Borgata and the NJGC is not asking those players to return their winnings, then I really don't see how they can justify withholding a partial payout to the final 27.
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-21-2014 , 02:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chippa58
If this is going to be a lengthy "investigation", then I really think paying the final 27 at least some cash is the right thing to do. I'm having a hard time understanding why they shouldn't at least be given 27th place money each while this matter is investigated. This would be the one issue that I could see involving lawyers as time drags on.

Other players in the same event have been paid after cashing for lesser amounts. If Borgata and the NJGC is not asking those players to return their winnings, then I really don't see how they can justify withholding a partial payout to the final 27.
Maybe they want to make sure any of the final 27 weren't involved?
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-21-2014 , 02:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjjou812
Even if they were understaffed, they caught the cheating, there may be no proximate cause. The cheating is likely an intervening cause or an intervening criminal act which could relieve the negligent party's liability.
Just because I "catch" a crime/cheat that was allowed due to my negligence, does that lessen my liability?

Without knowing many details (like the rest of us) I think a good lawyer could make a case. May not go to trial, but I think a settlement wouldn't be out of the question.

A key question in negligence is carelessness.

Just sayin' . . .
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-21-2014 , 02:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xalas
Maybe they want to make sure any of the final 27 weren't involved?
That's true, but its also very likely that some of the cheaters have in fact been paid lesser prizes. If no one has been cleared of wrongdoing, then shouldn't they be trying to seize the winnings of everyone who's been paid? If they're not doing that, then shouldn't they pay those who remain alive in the tourney? The only thing that differentiates them from the rest of the field is that they still have chips. At least that's what I would argue if this is going to be a lengthy process.
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-21-2014 , 02:17 AM
Honestly, the way to look at it is the cheaters scammed the other players as opposed to the casino scamming the players.

If the state regulators take the approach that the security of the poker tournament has to be the same as pit gaming it would be extremely expensive to ensure cheating never occurred in a poker tournament.

But if a random semi inexpensive steps were taken, i.e. switching chips more frequently, having the dealers watch the bagging process, and punishing any cheaters severely it solves the problem.

People should look at it as one minor incident by a group of people has opposed to a widespread problem.

Poker tournaments are run daily at basically every casino across the country without extensive oversight and no has felt cheated (though its likely that there is quite a bit of cheating in small tourneys everywhere).
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-21-2014 , 02:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyAggassi
I think a simple question is would you rather pay double the rake and cut all cheating to a bare minimum or keep the rake the same and maybe have the small amount of cheating that occurs today?? I think as a serious player the rake consideration is way more important

(and when i say small amount of cheating im obviously not referring to a situation where counterfeit chips are used - this rises above that standard)

(I don't know, but i assume every tournament series across the country has a small amount of cheating - in terms of chips being snuck in from other (usually smaller tournaments)
How bout the room just approximates the number of people that it can handle in a professional manner and charges the appropriate rake.

Having 1 or 2 massive tournies when it clearly cannot handle them, whilst being able to handle the rest of the tournies doesn't tell me they need to double their rake.
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-21-2014 , 02:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by comesandgoes
How bout the room just approximates the number of people that it can handle in a professional manner and charges the appropriate rake.

Having 1 or 2 massive tournies when it clearly cannot handle them, whilst being able to handle the rest of the tournies doesn't tell me they need to double their rake.
Their security measures are similar to other venues.

And if people don't enjoy the Borgata tourney experience why do more and more people show up every year?? (The lines are always long and the dealers for the first event are usually pretty bad.)
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-21-2014 , 03:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habman
Just because I "catch" a crime/cheat that was allowed due to my negligence, does that lessen my liability?

Without knowing many details (like the rest of us) I think a good lawyer could make a case. May not go to trial, but I think a settlement wouldn't be out of the question.

A key question in negligence is carelessness.

Just sayin' . . .
Its a fact specific issue. Generally the causation of damages by a negligent party can be "cut off" by the intentional criminal act of another. Or they could both be considered proximate causes. Example: a grocery store may not be liable if the bag boy assaults his enemy when he sees him in the store but a bar may be liable if a bouncer beats up a patron.

A negligence claim has four components
1. A duty
2. Breach of duty
3. Proximate cause
4. Damages

Claims against the borgata could fail at 2,3 or 4.


Any case can settle without a trial.
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-21-2014 , 03:31 AM
First, there was suspicion at the beg. of day 2. At that point things should of been looked at and I would assume play stopped. Since the B decided to be neglectful, they put these last 27 players in the spot that they are in. If this was dealt with earlier there wouldn't be this mess. I'm sorry but its not like a regular thing when theres chatter of chips being brought it. Id think you would deal with that immediately. You cant let the top 27 play it out regardless if any are guilty or not because, unfortunately, the way they got there was through a faulty tournament. Theres no way of knowing if chips were brought in day 1 or not. Seeing as 28th and up received max of ~6k I don't see people being forced to pay that back and sure, its very possible culprits lie amidst and could get away with it, but I guess in the scope of things 6k isn't too much to chalk one up to the douchebags . I think refund to people who didn't cash is necessary for their image. Its just not fair to the 4+ thousand people who could of been affected vs the final 27 (<1% of field ) . We focus on the 27 , sure, but what about all the other people who were cheated and thus effected their fair chance to ship it. Maybe give final 27 12k-25k each on sliding scale assuming you find culprits. Variance sucks.
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote

      
m