I would venture to say that every no limit event at the WSOP has chips taken out and smuggled in. It's the dirty little secret that most players aren't aware of. It's just too damn easy and there are too many cheaters to combat this.

Hpt thunder valley the best alternative. I'm playing borgata main though.

From the point of view of a recreational player, this situation at Borgata has a lot of repercussions.

I think the matter is split into 3 parts:
1)The criminal or cheating aspect of a few
2)The operational and fiduciary duty of Borgata – they hold in trust approx. 90% of the total entry fee on behalf of their customers
3)The remaining 27 players and what to do with the actual prize pool $

These each take on differing priorities and agenda for resolution, I think that the post by Cuserounder.. is an excellent summary of action and concerns to be addressed.

The fiduciary duty of the Casino/TD/Borgata are in doubt, in a similar fashion as the FTP scandal. Similar is the key – not exact. If recreational players come to believe that the Tournament operations are of such low standards to allow for doubt, or suspicion of actual fair play - then Tournament poker will dry up and it is only a matter of time.

To use an example of a bank robbery – if the Bank responded by simply canceling checking writing, transfers/withdrawals of customer’s money due to a robbery… all hell would break loose. Or if the bank continued with normal operations, but the remedy was to simply contact a few customers and inform them that THEIR money was stolen, and deduct that from the customers savings/checking… well just queue the pitch forks and sticks.

I was at Borgata over this past weekend, and played in 1 tournament (not event 1) - the dealers was so poor that I am in likely not to play again unless some action is taken to remedy the poor quality. We had several dealers that were getting 6-7 hands dealt per down, at the beginning of the tournament – when decisions are little less time consuming than towards end/bubble. In addition, to struggling with basic skills of shuffling and making change for chips/bets.

I hope that the cheaters get caught and dealt with severely and that the players prize pool gets resolved in a satisfactory manner (though I agree, the options are difficult and not clear).

But if in the end, if tournament procedures and quality does not change as result of this and improve – this may be a longer term problem.

My guess is TAB (I don't know him) can talk about football because he probably doesn't have a job past the investigation. This is likely to cost the casino (or their insurance company) a million or more and when a company loses that kind of money there is usually a fall guy. Unless it's a state run casino, then he probably gets suspended with pay.

Would love to hear about some hands that MTM played. Did he stack any 'kids' that called off with A high? Or were his big wins more honest looking?

The more I read, the more I think multiple millions of grays were stolen. We only know about 1-2 million, that number could be 10M+. The cheaters could have been testing if they could get away with adding in legit chips in a prelim event and ultimately try the same strategy for the main. Very weak IMO. But if you think about how many chips it could take to clog up a hotel sewage line, there mustve been a crap ton.

The main event doesn't use the sticker centered chips from what I remember.

Update . Tab stuck his twitter goon on me to threaten me etc.. Nice TD borgata got there..

I'm not a Borgata player, but if I was I would be contemplating boycotting it until this situation is remedied. If we (as the poker community) just go on our merry little way and continue to show up in droves at the Borgata, nothing will EVER change.

So - can we talk prevention? Cause my computer systems designer gears are spinning on this one...

RFID embedded chips with sensors at every entrance for sure.

The RFID table shown earlier in the thread is good - but an additional feature would be the RFID scanner with a high sensitivity scale.

Chips have a pretty uniform weight. During every break, each player's stack gets put on the scanner scale and if the weight doesn't match the chip count, red flag.

When a player joins the table, scan them in, and when the player leaves (table change), scan them out, and if the break time tally at the table doesn't match expected - red flag.

Obviously when they bag chips for the night - scan em again...

Basically lots of electronic validations that take a few seconds when a player moves and on the breaks that shouldn't impede the play of the game itself.

When I ran my convenience store I was always more concerned when the cash was over at the end of the day rather than short. Over meant something devious was going on. Short meant a mistake could have happened. Neither is good

The ultimate fix is either e-tables like Pokertek or a hybrid with live dealer and real cards and an electronic betting/tracking system. Players can have an encoded/encrypted card or thumbdrive that they take from table to table. All bets are punched into a keypad of sorts and added to the pot. Wins recorded to the card. Central computer system tracks it all.

No more physical chips to buy, store, sort, distribute, bag and tag. Savings here would pay for the system.

I already posted this about 15 pages ago but this is exactly how a table and tournament should look in 2014...Only reason i knew about this video was because I sort of designed a way better version, but saw this video like 2 years ago and gave up...I have way better solutions and ideas.. but this at the minimum..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZDnY_RdC24

I have played well over 100 events at the Borgata through the years. Paid my entry and felt I was getting a fair shake. I'm not crazy about the re-entry but it did help increase the field size when things fell off in 2009. I rarely fire another bullet but I did multiple time in this event. I feel really bad for the honest players remaining and would be crushed to be in there place but I also question wether myself or other first and second day players were crippled, eliminated or just cut down by chips fraudulently in play. To return to the Borgata I need to be refunded on this event otherwise it's the WSOPC and the HPT for me

CT007:

Very good points - especially the bolded. This is why I believe the New Jersey GCB is going to come down really hard on the Borgata. The state will impose a stiff fine and/or an enforcement action that sends a clear message to all New Jersey operators. The "message" will roughly equate to: "Don't ever let this happen again!"

From the state's perspective this is about protecting the steady flow of tax revenues emanating from the casinos. Anything that brings into question the integrity (or "fairness") of the games threatens the flow of all that tax money. Politicians in states like New Jersey, Mississippi, and Nevada would much rather have people handing over their "taxes" voluntarily rather than having to go on record voting for a tax increase that pi**es voters off - like they do here in my state of Alabama.

The dilemma though is what happens in the aftermath of a draconian DGE enforcement action imposed on the Borgata? Other operators, fearing that the same type of calamity could befall them, will (presumably) tighten up security procedures and (hopefully) crack down on cheaters. Poker cheats - and suspected poker cheats - should be treated the same way blackjack cheats are treated ... barred and (occasionally) taken out in the alley and beaten to within an inch of their lives. (If a thief walked up to you on the street, pulled a knife or a gun and demanded your money - "Or else!" - wouldn't that person be deserving of swift and sure justice? Poker cheats are no different ... every one of them ought to be hung.

The problem is that "cracking down" on all these cheaters will cost money and the casino's profits (from poker) are not that great - compared to all the other games they offer. If the cost of ensuring game integrity and weeding out the cheaters exceeds poker room profits, the operators will say "To hell with poker!" and that will be that. The operators will close the poker rooms.

Maybe the solution to this problem is that we poker players will have to help the operators weed out the cheaters. One way to do this might be for honest poker players to act collectively as a group. How might this work? If a known cheater, (like for instance, Russ Hamilton or Men the Master), walks into a poker room and buys chips; all players immediately make it clear to the floor and the poker room manager "If you don't eject this cheater right now, we're all getting up and leaving. There's another poker room next door and we would rather play there than be forced to sit and play with this thief!" (Word should also be spread quickly to all the recreational players who might not be aware that they are in the presence of a known poker cheat.) By proactively acting to protect the game, the vast majority of honest poker players will be acting to help save the game.

While I'd agree that's a good fix, I'd be very surprised if something like that could be instituted in most cardrooms, and within a reasonable amount of time. And even then, how many of these systems do you buy for your cardroom?

My understanding is that this event was so large that tables were set up in areas not commonly used for poker and a bunch of temporary inept dealers were hired.
Do you have a bunch of these tables sitting idle for months at a time? Hire a bunch of dealers who need training on how to operate them? Then there's the issue of breakdowns at individual tables and systemwide crashes.
Maybe you have one big system and ship it from place to place. I don't know, but in the interim there have been many steps outlined in this thread that could reduce cheating without enormous expense, and as a practical matter, those are the things that the TDA could examine more quickly.

It is very entertaining reading this thread and seeing how many here are in their own world where it has gotten to the point that people want all 27 to get first place prizes +
These tournaments are exactly what people wanted. A small buy in that can make someone a life changing win. Everyone that has these big tourneys has lots of bad dealers Including the main event
Borgata is the one that caught the cheating whether from information given to them or by the count. They didn't sweep it under the rug despite the repercussions They are the ones that called enforcement Wonder how many casinos have caught imbalances and did not report over the years.
No decisions are in Borgata's hands at this time.
The final 27(if none cheated) will get their money. How it is dished out, I do not know Even if it was allowed to be played out, it would only take one person to say they cannot come for a chop to be worked out
I do not believe Borgata is responsible for this or is responsible or needs to dish out refunds. I played, went out day 2 and do not expect a thing from them, nor should I.
They do not have to refund money for their rep or any other reason. They did nothing wrong and if they have good tourneys with good structures, people will come
Tab is a great TD and very accessible and will in no way be fired nor should he be.
The only thing that needs to be done is catch and prosecute the cheaters and come up with some way to make cheating like this more difficult without incurring more expense for the players.
I wonder why so many of you are posting anonymously to this thread while bitching and trying to put the pressure on for Borgata to refund everyone which I doubt will happen.

Arrests should been made by now it should not be rocket science to figure out the culprits. Ton of witnesses and cameras should make the puzzle easily solved and quickly. just mind boggling no one caught on to this quickly given the amount of chips introduced

lol @ Texas poker game

The practical solution would be to have a company who owns extra tables and rents them out to casinos during their massive events.

IMO we should just go full e-poker for huge-field tournaments. If you can't staff enough competent dealers then move away from using dealers for this.

this is just plain wrong

the Borgata is responsible for this because they profit from it and they created the atmosphere, i.e., hosting a live event that is absolutely huge and then having inept dealers who could not immediately figure out that "fugazi" chips were being put into play

idk this TD named Tab, but the Titantic had a captain and Custer also had a last stand

I am sure many people here have played on the pokertek tables. I have and they are pretty easy to use. The only fear I have is I have seen on a number of occasions a table freeze and it take 15 minutes, sometimes more, to reboot the system. The entire tournament would have to stop every single time this happened.

If a casino would consider pokertek tables the rfd or similar technology casino chips seems like a more player friendly and cost efficient choice.

I fired 4 bullets in the event, and am saddened and disappointed by what happened but I don't expect a refund nor do I think we'll get one. IMO the best solution is let the final 27 play it out and Borgata should hold a free roll for $297k (the money they raked) for anyone who entered the tournament as an apology to it's customers.

IMO any transformation to these electronic tables might deter me and I'm sure I'm not the only one. If I wanted to mess around with electronics I'd stay at home and play from my laptop, saving gas money, my time, and I can play a hell of a lot more tournaments online. I prefer to play live for the interactions / physical chips and I feel anything "virtual" will take away the only reasons I come to play at the casino.

I'm sure its going to be the "future" one day but I hope its delayed for the time being.

Nice first post, I agree with everything you say and do not even work for Borgota nor am I friends with Tab.

How about an tablet app that can be used to track chip counts. Any time chips are counted and bagged, or a player busts, or a player is moved, or a player rebuys, that information is entered into the app. The data is communicated to a server which checks for shortages and overages in the chip counts. This way, any problems of chips being introduced, or removed for later use, can be narrowed down to individual tables.