I think you spelled it wrong, it's C-O-R-O-N-A

Didn't play in this one, but played in the fall opening event, and a raft of other Borg tourneys, so have a sense of the room. Until such time the facts and decisions come out from the authorities, here's some points of speculation:

Gaming enforcement is now in control of the investigation and will do what it takes to identify the perp(s) and any other colluders. The size of the prize pool and scope of players make this a landmark case, and NJDGE will need to prove itself in defeating what happened here. The possibility of having any inside help will put Borg on the sidelines during the investigation and they will likely have no authority over how to treat the issue of refunds/prize pool allocations. So the 27 ITM remaining may have to ride it out for a while; for all DGE knows, the perp(s) could still be among them.

By viewing surveillance video and interviewing players, staff and dealers, DGE will try to track and trace to the earliest moment when the bad chips came in and obviously by whom. If they can get it down to some starting tables, then they can retrieve the original entry tickets for seat and name. From that they can bring up players' cards and get all the key ID - drivers' licenses, address, DOB. Or if they can ID them by video and some are known by face and name. Much harder to track if the bad chips came in as tables broke, during breaks, and other non-starting table or viewable instances. As of now, the perps are either out of the money (and likely out of the state/country by now), cashed (but the name/amount and other ID info is in the database), or among the 27 remaining (with known ID). Since this ID data is known and in control, DGE will drill down hard in their investigation.

The probable amount of bad chips raise the likelihood that a group implemented a scheme to take advantage of the thin supervisory coverage for such a big, busy tournament. If there are 200+ counterfeit 5000s, it is unlikely that one or two persons could inject them into the game without notice. If the fakes were spread out over several players and over several injection points during the tournament, then it becomes more manageable to pull this off. Plus the presence of many players, many of whom are not Borg regulars, help their scheme because many would not be familiar with the chips and could see/get/win/make change for a bad chip and not know it is fake. Assuming a squad of colluders, the schemers could have had a deal to divvy up their collective winnings among themselves.

What is a tad puzzling is the color applied to the fakes, if the pics we have been seeing are the true bad chips. One would assume that the baddies would try to get a color shade much closer to the real ones, rather than picking a shade that is quite noticeable in retrospect. Perhaps they had to act fast once they decided to do this. But the quantity of chips and probable network of schemers make it more likely that this was a plan in the making for quite a while. If they hijacked some real chips and then painted / altered / labeled them, or had some made on the outside that had the close enough color and ridges, and placed the labels, then it points to an elaborated, thought-through, plan with a ring leader, backers, and implementers. No doubt that they will/should examine all/every bad chip closely and derive some facts about them - same or different, real but altered or home made, how the labels were made and applied, any usable fingerprints common among them.

The perps also likely knew how the Borg runs these tournaments. When I played in the fall game, I was struck at how casual, spread out and lax the supervisors were in relation to the number of players, and the substantial number of inexperienced, unmotivated dealers. I sat at a table where the dealer hardly spoke/knew English - I even told others at my table about that in plain voice and she didn't seem to understand (or care) what I was saying out loud. The managerial weakness and the ongoing casual culture of this room was certainly an enticing factor for the perps - they could then figure out their best chances to inject their players and bad chips.

How DGE will treat the prize pool now in trust is a toss up. Right now, the equities of the 27 remaining is in limbo, as DGE needs to know first if any baddies are among them. But the Borg is tied, since DGE also needs to investigate any chances of inside help. This could go on for a long time as the investigation plays out. Any Borg action to "make good" to the field will likely have to be reviewed by DGE, an approval process that could put a brake on any quick restitution for all the honest players, regrettably.

If there was a group doing this, chances go up that they can ID at least some of them - if they can zero in on one of them, then they can begin to link them together via the data from their players cards.

Again, the above are speculative points as we all await more. What is probable from all this is the changes that will be/have to be made for the prominent big-money, big field tourneys - tighter regs, chip tracking tech and/or procedures, and many other steps that will add up to higher costs, slower play. Perhaps this was an inevitable situation arising from the constant grind of poker rooms trying to serve a demanding set of players amid the complexity of handling chips, money, and running the games accurately and honestly. The schemer(s) saw the flaws and acted to take advantage. Chip authenticity and control will be one of the major concerns, among many, for the industry from here on out.

easiest point to add chips is at end of day at bagging and tagging.

Great post wzupdok. I pretty much agree with all of that. Borgata itself IS a suspect as the DGE sees it now. Not saying the corp is complicit but they can't rule out them covering up things to save face. That's just standard precaution.

Again nobody likes this at all. It sucks for everyone involved. All these posts saying the Borg is gonna profit off this are absurd.

Anyway, who can foresee the chips at the table becoming digital? Technology is certainly out there. All opinions seem to be that poker rooms are hurting regardless of volume, so is there a cost efficient way to implement that sort of thing?

Sent from my SCH-I535 using 2+2 Forums

I wouldn't think the Borgota is legally responsible to refund anything besides the buy in.

Now to do this as a good will gesture is something else. I suspect it is being discussed. My hunch is the players are SOL. They might get some small comp or something. But airfare? Forget it.

I've been to other events that have been canceled. They refund your ticket and that is it.

Borgata should consider bringing in a completely new poker management team. Someone should take the fall for this huge problem, and like they say about the QB/Coach they get all the fame they have to get the blame. So TD gotta go

But were they canceled for these same circumstances.. probably not

Sounds like vested interest working at fullest!!

I have played in many poker room. And don't know the team at borgata personally. But I have found them as best or one of the better one in the poker industry.

Doc sums it up nicely. Probably, this issue will not be resolved by the Borgata, but rather by Gaming. Since it's their investigation, the Borgata is now on the sidelines like the rest of us.

Rfid embedded chips could be made in conjunction with Rfid readers at the table or in the room. A bunch of chips, in the pot or otherwise collected for verification, could be brought together in front of a Rfid reader and the grand total instantly light up, along with numbers of the different denominations. Rfid is coming down in price, but still not super cheap. However, if the industry asked for a super simple rfid chip that only emits the denomination, then perhaps the cost curve is within reach. Given the numbers of chips involved in inventory of the big casinos, there would be a substantial up front fixed cost.

The cash chips now used for table games also have verification elements, obviously trade secrets, but since tournament chips are declared 'no value', there may be an unwitting let down of defenses for that item. Of course they have no cash value, but they do have true intra-tournament value as they are the currency used to determine the cash outcomes of the game. The declaration of 'no value' on tournament chips is, ironically, a contributory factor in why they aren't given the higher tech defenses that cash chips have.

Btw, there is an episode of a tv show, no longer running, called "Cheating Vegas" in which cash chips were counterfeited in quite an easy manner for that time. Perhaps the baddies got the same idea and used the concept to cheat in this tournament.

I do think we deserve something on this I'm getting annoyed....something official.

Here's that clip on how two guys made fake chips:

http://www.destinationamerica.com/tv...feit-chips.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZDnY_RdC24 RFID CHIP/POKER TABLE

Great clip

Is it certain that there was not also a color up problem in addition to fake chips? That is a big discrepancy in chips. There was a color problem in the WSOP main event several years ago for something like 6M in chips.

My personal color up mistake experience is at the Borgata about 2-3 years ago. We are on a break and everyone leaves the table, but I just step away and make a phone call. The floor is getting rid of the huge stacks of 1K chips. I don't pay any attention until he gets to my stack and exchanges a rack of 1Ks (100,000) for a stack of 25K (500,000). He takes two racks and gives me two stacks and now I have an extra 800,000.

I am honest to a fault and stop him. He sees his error and now has to recreate what he already took from 2 or 3 players ahead of me. We get it all straight eventually. It could have been ugly and totally unfair to the guys without large 1K stacks.

why do you think he's asking someone else to do his dirty work?

When Men Nguyen nguyens. Everybody nguyens.

One can also think about how the perps would use their fake chips. Would they use them to overbet hands and pots to get folds, or use them to back their 5000 stacks to make them look larger than reality and get folds that way. If they used them actively, to bet with them, then the risk of discovery is higher since they would be out in the open and mixed with the real 5000s. If they used them passively, as stack-backers, then they retain control for a longer period while they look for ways to use them, perhaps as a single chip bet. Passive use confronts the higher blinds and they have to get used at some point - especially when bubble/ITM approaches. Once ITM is hit, then everyone's guard is let down and the perps can more easily use the fakes in betting. Another avenue is looking for ways to trade the fake for change from an unsuspecting player, especially one who doesn't have a 5000 stack. That would entail patience and someone close to them at the table. Seems long way to do but another way to use the fakes and get good chips.

With so many chips, 200+, circulating the perps may also have wanted enough in play to confuse matters and to fog up the situation enough so that no one perp could be identified in a short period of time. If the scheme is revealed, they take off - if they already have cashed then they are gone. If they are in the final 27, then they may also have taken off.

Assuming they bagged and tagged when the game was suspended - they can see the concentration of bad chips among the 27 bags and see which tables had relatively high numbers of fakes, then conduct the investigation/analysis by deductively going back as tables broke - the table breaking sequence might be recorded on the bravo. Then look at the tapes at those tables with high fakes and begin to narrow in.

One thing that I think would help a lot that I'm surprised no one has suggested: don't include high denomination chips in the starting stacks.

When you start with 20k, there is no reason why there needs to be a 5k chip in play. When you buy into a 1/2NL game for $300, do you bring 5 red, 3 green, and 2 black? Of course not. You bring 60 red.

If you don't introduce the high denomination chips until later in the tournament (close to the money or when the 100 chips are colored up), there is much less opportuntity to bring fakes into play. First, you would need to make it deep into the tournament before you could bring them to the table. Second, it is much easier for staff to monitor the entire tournament when the field size is much smaller.

I definitely like this one the most if they are forced to have to chop it up.

This is a good idea and could work somewhat at least for the earlier parts of a tourney like you said. However, with a field this big, I am sure the chips they have are spread thin and a 5k chip is needed to get everyone an even stack because they probably push the limits and run out of smaller denominations. Takes 5 1k chips for every 5k obv and that starts adding up with over 4000 entrants. Would be just a matter of purchasing more tournament chips, but not a bad idea. No ones going to risk counterfitting small denom chips. Well, I guess you never know, but less likely.

That is an excellent demo. Precisely what I was talking about - good to see that a company actually has done the work. Great for PLO. Also makes it easy to size bets in relation to the working pot. The key question is the cost premium - a poker room would have to be high volume, host lots of high value tournaments to start using, but it may also be a point of innovation for a smaller casino to draw new biz. Thanks for sharing.

I might have missed an earlier post, but it would be interesting to hear Matt Savage's take on how he is going to approach the large tournys coming up for LA Poker Classic at the Commerce. There's a buttload of degens, cheaters, scammers, etc. that roam that place. Commerce chips are sooooooo old. They had a similar issues a few years back with somebody pocketing chips in a tourney. Also the Bike has those kinds of tournys. Since the TDA has so much to say about poker player behaviour (talking at the table, meat in the seat), they should take up how to protect the integrity of the game. On the other hand, maybe it's a Casino matter to handle.

RFID chip tables are rigged

Edit: "We will now see how well this table performs in a Texas poker game"

*facepalm*

And the deal was rigged yo!

Lol @MenHouseofChip on twitter.