Borgata just got too greedy and now it's biting them in the ass. They wanted to register 4,500 players b/c of all the rake they can collect and they don't give a damn if they can't efficiently run a tourney of that size (inexperienced dealers getting out 10 hands an hour and understaffed floor).

Now they will finally start to care and hopefully cap the fields.

As for blaming Tab, yes that's easy and logical but he is likely pressured by higher ups to attract fields as large as possible. I doubt he has as much control as the majority of posters ITT think he does. Still, he and his staff should be more vigilant for sure.

Will the WPT Championship still be moving to Borgata this year? I wonder.

chillin:

You might want to read the following and reconsider your opinion.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=537

Haha. "Read my post and reconsider."

The stamping is not crisp and I think it would be hard to spray paint one without filling the cane.

The logo itself. If the borgata is too dark or thick it would photograph much better on an angle, too thin or light and they would be almost unreadable head on. And that is something that could be seen from a security camera.

There were comments posted somewhere earlier in the thread that they were noticeably lighter as well.

Is it possible they were printed on a 3D printer?

golfnutt:

No, what happens if the Borgata "covered up" this incident and tried to act like there was no cheating - it merely postpones the inevitable. Cheaters are further emboldened - "because we can get away with it!" - and the problem only gets worse. Eventually, you have a big-field tournament where rather than a measly $1.9 million in fake counterfeit tournament chips (or whatever the amount was) you have double that amount of fake chips - and 1/3 of the players who cash are in on the scam. This problem should have been dealt with - and dealt with in a very harsh and aggressive manner - back when "Men the Master" was caught red-handed with a huge pile of tournament chips laying on his bed in his hotel room at Foxwoods.

By "covering up" this problem, and ignoring the cheating issue generally because "... we don't want to be embarrassed," the B&M casino industry (as well as the internet poker sites) guaranteed there would eventually be a calamity. I don't feel great pity for greedy operators who choose to stick their heads in the sand like ostriches. If they went after poker cheats with the same vigor and determination with which they pursue blackjack cheats, all this could have been prevented. (I'm sure the people with the Griffin Agency would be eager and willing to provide the casinos with a "Black Book" of known poker cheats to be barred from poker rooms. For whatever reason the operators chose not to avail themselves of that resource.)

Men the Master should have been prosecuted, convicted, and sent up the river for 5-10 years. That would have given him sufficient time to contemplate the error of his ways. More importantly, it would have sent a strong deterrent message to all the other idiots who believe cheating poker players (and the casinos) pays. By giving Men (and others) a mere slap on the wrist, these operators virtually guaranteed a cluster**** like this would eventually occur.

we really could use more people like this in government

Not saying its right or wrong but if somehow the Borgata just continued the tournament than caught the cheats the pr hit would not be so bad (and given some small partial refunds). Basically, they would have been able to run future tournaments without a hiccup provided they added more security to the tournaments.

It did not have to be a coverup they could have said play continues, appropriate refunds will be given, and the cheaters punished severely.

What they need to do is build an environment where the punishment for cheating is so bad that no one thinks about it and they can basically run the same tournaments with a few more safeguards built in.

Im 100% certain I received the shiny metallic silver chips as part of my stack on day 1c, I just assumed they were new and thats why they were so crisp.

If they are the counterfeit chips, surely the floor is involved, no? which leads me to question why would they add 220 counterfeit 5k chips 2 at a time? This would surely not benefit 1 player more than another unless im missing something.

However the numbers do kind of make sense if these chips were used in the stacks for alternate players since i was #81 and that was at half way through level 6, if we assume 29 more players were able to play after me, Thats 110 alternates or 220 5k chips which = 1,100,000 in chip worth which is the discrepancy, no?

No, it couldn't have been covered up in today's poker world or made a non-issue. Now that poker has risen to the level it has, when something of this scale happens it is going to be reported by both the poker press and the traditional press.

The traditional press is going to cover it as an angle to the arguments for or against the legalization of gambling. The poker press has to cover it because if they don't they look like a shill for the Borgata/casino industry.

Cheating is going to happen. Every angle and incident must be considered and dealt with otherwise the entire industry is suspect and all the ground that has been made in legitimizing the game in the eyes of the general public goes out the window.

Define 'appropriate refund' please.

Is it everyone who didn't get paid gets 5% of their buy-in refunded? Great. How about the [hypothetical] person at table 25 who happened to win an all-in hand against one of the players who had 100k worth of fake chips and used those chips to make it to and cash out in 33rd place? Or if that same person happened to be in the final 27, knocking out or crippling 40 people on the way?

What is the 'appropriate refund' for the player that had airfare, hotel, and all the associated expenses to come to the tournament to bust out on the bubble by a player who got there with the fake chips (knowingly involved or not)?

The hypothetical people make bad plaintiffs when they have the burden of proof.

Appropriate damages? So you think that everyone who spent money to come to the tournament should receive compensation for those expenses? No chance they would have incurred those expenses and still not make the money, right?

Bingo! This is why all of Rich Muny's daily exhortations urging us to write and email our elected representatives and demand our right to play poker are meaningless. As long as the general public (and the media) perceive poker as a snake pit infested with cheaters and low lifes, our elected representatives are not going to open the doors to further legalization. All a scandal like this does is reinforce the general perception among ordinary people that poker - and poker players - are sleazy and corrupt.

Until organizations like the PPA (and the gaming industry in general) get serious - as in heart attack serious - about cleaning up the game and weeding out the cheaters, I'm not lifting a finger with respect to urging my elected representatives to give joints like the Borgata the right to offer "safe and secure" internet poker to their customers.

The first priority of the PPA - and the gaming industry - should be to deal with the cheating problem. Clean up poker's image first - and then think about further expansion into the internet sphere. By ignoring the cheating problem, the PPA is putting the cart before the horse.

AGAIN...

Exactly. That is unfortunately what you sometimes have to do.

Just down-play the whole incident and try to go after the cheaters. Arbitrarily cutting off a tournament has seemed to backfire. They are getting more criticized than if they just let it run its course.

It easily could have been covered up. This type of stuff has gone on in tons of tournaments forever. This is about as low-tech and easy as it gets. Stopping the tournament with 27 players left is the only reason this is in the news. If they just kept going, said it wasn't material and that they are going to look for the cheaters, there would be nothing about this.

Post by BorgataPoker on P5s New Jersey's wall 14 minutes ago...


BorgataPoker: Hello P5ers. We understand the desire for more information regarding the Borgata Winter Poker Open Event 1. However, the regulators have not provided an update to us as the investigation in still ongoing and pending a resolution. We know this may cause some frustration but our players, games and operations are of the utmost importance to us so it is imperative that we conduct a thorough exploration with the New Jersey gaming regulators. Your patience is appreciated and as soon as we have additional information, we will provide it.


Well, at this point they keep just repeating this, and only god knows how long this will take. The fact that the Borgata hasn't even tried to "band-aid" the situation while still under investigation is leading me to believe that there will be 100% a refund+....You have to assume the Borgata would love to pay refunds ASAP and get people to sign papers saying that after taking the refund, the issue is done. I think the NJDGE is not allowing them yet. The Borgata has about $1.4 mill locked up and maybe even the full 2.6M locked up just incase. But that doesn't mean they have to use that locked money to refund, already assuming they will take a money hit. They could easily refund out of their own pocket first,recoup frozen money later. I am SURE they want to, but NJDGE will not let them make any moves or statements. This leads me to believe that at least some portion of this mess was covered up/ inside job. If this is true, I'm sure we will all get more than just a refund.

If it was just a couple (5-10) cheaters, with no inside help, I doubt it would be taking this long. Are they really making everyone wait while 100s of hours of video tape are examined to find out who it is before just a refund is in order? I think this goes deeper. If this does come out, as rouge dealers and floor/chip runners were involved in helping certain players, I see a hugeeeeeeeee fine/settlement coming our way.

Think about it, if NJDGE finds the borgata liable and orders the Borgata to make a settlement, I think it will be something close to 50M(has to be close). We may not even need lawyers/class action suit.

Before jumping on me about how there is no chance 50 million settlement is even possible, please google some past casino fines/settlements. Most of them involved 50M+ fines, directly to the government because of breaking tax laws/money laundering(which yes, i know is worse than murder according to the govt).

It is just speculation at this point, all of it. But, being one of the 4000+ entrants, I choose to speculate there was initially a "cover-up and play on" type of thing. That would really hurt the Borgata, even if there was no inside help. Inside help makes it 1000x worse and we should all be expecting more than a refund.

I stress here, I'm not considering any theoretical lawsuits. I was responding only to JimmyAggassi's statement that play could have continued with a promise of 'appropriate refunds'.

The angles for theoretical lawsuits are numerous at this point without even knowing how this whole thing happened. I'm sure there's a few people/lawyers already preparing drafts based on possibilities. Once we know the details and what Borgata offers up front for its initial appeasement offer, its going to be fun to see the lawsuits that are actually filed.

So you think someone is going to order the Borgata to pay out an additional ~$48 million dollars (almost 20x the tournament gross value) in "settlement" without any further debate simply because you presume insiders must be involved due to the delay in revealing the investigative results a few days.

You should first look up and understand the differences between an "order" and a "settlement".

Then, give me some of what you are smoking, please!

yeaaaaaa Poker "Media" !!!

Montreal has Poker Rooms.
I am not sure it's Legal in the USA

This is very significant. If the chips were in at the beginning, then the floor must have been in on it. It then seems likely that the staff took in cash, gave out fake 5K chips, pocketed the cash, and reported on their books fewer entrants.

This could be way off but should at least be thought about IMO.

I don't believe it's greed or a bad thing that Casinos like Borgata and Parx have been offering lower Buy In Events, that still have great structures !

This is why the events have been getting such incredible turnouts !

They offered the type of event that is clearly what the Poker Community wants, and people showed up ! This was a record # of entries for this event !

Clearly, this incident spotlights that Casino's and Poker Rooms need to do more if these events are to continue.....but I certainly hope they don't abandon the idea of lower Buy-In, Quality Structured tournaments !

BorgataPoker: Hello P5ers. We understand the desire for more information regarding the Borgata Winter Poker Open Event 1. However, the regulators have not provided an update to us as the investigation in still ongoing and pending a resolution. We know this may cause some frustration but our players, games and operations are of the utmost importance to us so it is imperative that we conduct a thorough exploration with the New Jersey gaming regulators. Your patience is appreciated and as soon as we have additional information, we will provide it.

If Borgata thinking of refunds, it is a good idea to pay as quick as possible . Also will help main event turn out!!

I'll take a Rolex as compensation. Everyone should get the same one or a bracelet so whenever we see someone with that bracket or watch we know they were a part of chipgate

The wsop tournament everyone is talking about where an extra million chips showed up how does that compare? They weren't fake chips and sounds like a color up mistake?