Look at Foxwoods Poker Room as an example. They spend money for auto shuffle machines only at the Cash Game Tables. They refuse to do so for the Tournament Tables. Are they really going to upgrade to RFID tables for tournaments ?

who's at fault if borgata isn't? They cheating was so widespread it's expected to be caught over a million fake chips is expected to be found if it was 2 fake 5k chips even 10 fake ones no one would be saying anyrhing because that could of been from any tournament. This is over a million over 200 fakes 5000 chips

Emphasis mine.

Grunching a bit (I've only read up to post #1134) but I'm not 100 percent sure there would be a weight difference, even though I mentioned that myself in a previous post.

Based on the photo that Mr. Edwards posted, it seems the phony chip could easily have been a real Paulson, painted and given a fake inlay to resemble the real ones. After all, the off-colored chip has the same molding. If so, the weight difference would be none to negligible.

But you're right on the rest. I'm not sure about the actual color (specularity changes the way an object photographs) but they certainly didn't shell out a few extra bucks for the Krylon matte vs. semi-gloss paint. Definitely amateur hour.

You're right about the weight. I thought the real chips were a Paulson grey. It seems the reals are metallic silver. Paulson "metallic" colors are heavier in my experience. I have some metallic gold $.25 Fitzgerald Henderson chips that weigh a ton. I think they are 11-11.5g each as opposed to 9.5-10g for a "regular" Paulson 39mm chip. These T5Ks are 43mm chips - the weight difference would be even greater and easier to notice in handling. So if the reals are metallic silver and the fakes are painted non metallic colored chips, then it all makes sense.

See that is one thing I don't get. I can see one anti-counterfeiting measure on the chips, But is IS present on the one(s) we are presuming to be fake.

I'm not a very trusting person, I admit it. But if the Borgata ordered additional 5K chips, and chose to go with a more metallic color and the new chips were first used in event 1 and someone had counterfeits ready of the new chips...

Although I have not posted to twoplustwo before, I feel compelled to now.

I live in one of those few states with no casinos, so I have to travel a good ways to play poker tournaments.
I am asked regularly (mostly by non-poker players) why I don't play in home games or underground games and the answer is simple: security. In an unregulated game, it would be much easier to cheat, collude, mark cards, etc. I pay the increasingly large vigs casinos charge to ensure the game is well run but most importantly to ensure the integrity of the game.
And that is where ultimately the Borgata must be held accountable. Every one of us who played this tournament paid the Borgata to run a safe and secure tournament. While no staff can be expected to catch every single cheat, it is clear this was a much larger operation, with multiple players and numerous fake chips involved.
It was also abundantly clear that this event was massively understaffed. Dealer after dealer told us that this was their first day ever of dealing poker and that they received between little to no training. Newbie dealers happen in large fields, but when this is the case there should be enough floor people to provide real oversight. As it was, floor people were spread so thin that most of the day you could look around and not see any, and when a floor person had to be called for a problem at the table it would take at least 5 minutes to get one over. It's not like the turnout was overwhelmingly larger than expected. A $2 million guarantee predicts at least 4000 entries, and surely the Borgata was not expecting an overlay, so they should have been well prepared for this size field. And with large fields, cheaters come out of the woodwork... After all, why risk scamming a small tournament, but a one with such a large prize pool? This, too, was foreseeable, at least to the point that Borgata should have been staffed well enough to at the very least be on the lookout for scammers.
With this lack of oversight and understaffing, Borgata must do the right thing and take responsibility for this happening on their watch.

To me this means not just sitting back and waiting to be told by NJGC what they are technically liable for but stepping up and making things right by their 4000+ customers.
The best thing Borgata can do is, regardless of what NJGC ultimately decides, step forward ASAP and refund all non-cashers their money. If the ultimate NJGC decision is that those people should be refunded out of the remaining prize pool being held in escrow, then Borgata might recoup some of that, but in the meantime they would avoid increasingly bad press, a lifetime of ill-will from 4000+ poker players, as well as huge class action lawsuit.
As for the final 27 (minus anyone involved in the cheating), they have to decide what's best to appease most of them. If I were in crisis management for Borgata I would look to reach some sort of settlement with them to avoid litigation. The cost of defending against the various lawsuits that would arise could easily be more than the cost of a remedy that would make cheated players feel whole. Not to mention the bad publicity that is already festering would immediately be turned into good publicity if the Borgata acts proactively, starting by issuing refunds.

To poker players not just on the east coast but throughout the country, Borgata poker has always stood for quality and excellence. How they handle this debacle will mean the difference between keeping that reputation or being relegated to a tawdry joke.

I entered this tournament believe in everyone started on a level playing field, at least chip-wise. By so many fake chips being introduced into play, it is clear the field was anything but fair.

The longer it takes Borgata to do the right thing, the chances of my making the next trip to play there decreases. As it is, I'm now not so sure I'll go back as planned for the main event. If Borgata doesn't care about losing respect from players, maybe they'll care about losing our play at the pits and our money in the restaurants and the hotel rooms.

I also played in this event and busted in 342, so I guess I'm one of the "lucky" ones. I can't fathom people who are posting here saying this is not at all Borgata's fault. Obv. the cheats who moved the fake chips in are the ultimate ones responsible, but the Borgata did not exactly do much to prevent the potential for cheating taking place, imo they basically are inviting it.

From bag and tag at end of Day 1's on this tournament was filled with opportunities to cheat. When you allow people to play their biggest stack, you are inviting people to palm chips at bag and tag and add them to another buy in at some point. I admittedly do not have an answer to cure this, but I'm sure it happens quite often(everywhere, not just Borgata), especially in an event center filled with incompetent dealers and 1000's of people roaming around, half of who were not even playing the event.
Another easy way to cheat is when you bust out in the money. When I busted I was handed a seat card by my dealer and told to go cash out. After going to the line(yes line to cash out that took 45 minutes to an hour to get through, because they only had 2 people cashing out the flood that would obv. bust soon after the $$$), I realized we were supposed to have been sent to a floorperson to get a #'ed ticket as to what place we roughly busted in. It would have been easy to just sit around in the convention center for an extra half hour and move up another pay level, they had no way of watching people.
Overall the only way I would ever play there again is if they pay back all of the non-cashers and also find a way to split the remaining prizepool out of those in the final 27 that are deemed to be innocent. I cannot imagine having a run like that on the up and up only to find out it has been screwed up by some cheats and a poorly run tournament.

Great post by SoBi88.

Very well said! I am one of the 27!! I have faith they will do the right thing. But really, who knows.

Ok Allen. So taking two out of the three most prime chances of smuggling out of the equation solves nothing?

I agree with Cicak that it certainly carries time constraints, but I think they are being exaggerated. There is a floor and dealer at every broken table and 9-10 players. The actual chip amount isn't even that important, more than that the dealer opens the bag and visually gets to see the stack of the new player.

You didn't play the event so you have no idea how crazy it was, and how seemingly easy it could have been to get these chips in play

Appeasing Adolf Hiltler in same context of Chip Gate-Wow!

Next time someone asks me to "make change", will have to think hard about it.

I mean, let's be real, this is pretty much a 9/11 moment for live MTTs.

Everything changes now.

Ya, Not only do I not think hard about it, I just flat out don't do it. When I travel and play live poker. My money stays in my pocket. There is no reason for me to make change for any1. That is why most places have chip runners.

Every time I re-entered I thought I had a chance to win this event. Now I know none of us did. Just think if I didn't suck so bad I could be one of the 27 and really be miserable. I feel for ya

Great post SoBi88

Their job is very minimal. Protect the integrity of the game.

It sounds like the way things were run for this particular tournament are akin to a carnival.

Makes me thankful for my good experiences at Commerce (I hope I didn't just jinx anything).

He's referring to change in tournaments I believe.

Good post.

An absolutely brutal commentary.

Imagine the feeling for players who are losing as is - now they have to deal with getting cheated and the casino not stepping up to protect them. The player pool continues to dissipate.

The silver chip I took the picture of was notably lighter! Keep in mind as I got to 400k at my high point, I also saw the freshly cut metallic silver paulsons. This one was almost chrome. Crazy!

Yup. I was talking to Tad in the card room today and he said almost the exact same thing.... "Whatever happens, this changes everything for future tournaments"

Interesting. So yeah, this suggests they weren't painted real Paulsons but – as was stated – fake Paulsons.

Oh, and thanks to SoBi88 for that post. Of all the various opinions in this thread, I give extra weight to the those of the victims. You guys are the ones truly going through this, and I wish you the best in being made whole.

SoBi88, do you remember roughly when you began seeing the bogus chips?

Any chance there are no arrests from this thing? as one of the final 27 I am just trying to prepare myself for doomsday scenarios, one would be that after six months of labor somehow there still isn't one cheat in handcuffs and the DGE doesn't even consider releasing the prize pool money until they feel satisfied they know who cheated and how exactly they did it. also (and here I openly confess my legal ignorance) can the DGE even make arrests? do they just bring information/proof to the state attorney general's office and suggest prosecution? prosecutors like cases of the open and shut variety, they might have a more skeptical and stringent standard of "proof", worrying about proving fraud if, for example, all the evidence is circumstantial and the Borgata video is somehow of poor quality.
It seems like arrests are a near certainty but the longer we wait to see one happen the more I will get nervous. It just seems like nothing would move forward until then.

Pro is the whole thing is out of their hands ATM. NJGC is in charge at this point (at least this is what I have been told)

I've been to too many home games over the years that were loosely run and are risky just as SoBi88 says. My home game is governed by extensive rules and I enforce them. The cards have to be cut, a cut card has to be used, any player can call for a deck change between deals and/or seat change, anyone can call to shuffle the deck, couples can't sit together, and you can leave anytime win or loose. My house rules are on my web site for anyone to look at.

If I catch someone cheating they forfeit all their chips:

31. Cheaters Beware! If you are caught cheating you will forfeit ALL your chips and be asked to leave. This includes collusion. You will not receive any cash from the bank and you will be barred from the game. The current pot will be awarded to the last active player with the highest hand. All remaining chips from the cheater’s stack will be divided equally between the other players including those who may have busted out during the game. I hope that I never have to enforce this rule.

As to fake chips, I have all my clay chips denominated and monogrammed and I inventory them after every game. I'm going on 20 years using them and I have not lost any chips so far. While not impossible to counterfeit it would cost them more in getting the chip made that what they would get. Who would counterfeit a $1 chip? I know how many $10 chips are out at any time.

I vet all players and never have more than 8 players. I never play at underground games either. It's just to risky. I wish my state have legal poker rooms as well but it doesn't. Thus I have to run my own game or travel.