True, all of it.

Not surprisingly, Mike is correct. When he and I started playing (20 years ago), the muck was indeed a magical zone which instantly killed any card that touched it. But, as he says:

Over the last 10 years or so the rules of poker have taken a big step forward, and a lot of that has been predicated on the rules of intent.

It was an egregious angle by the player(s) who claimed it was binding action and an even more egregious call by the floor, who completely ignored the good of the game in their ruling. It's worth noting, by the way, that all the major rule books (including TDA), now have a Rule #1 that says the floorman can deviate from all the other rules for the good of the game.

From what I can tell in this case, it didn't even require any particular deviation from any rules. The guy obviously had no intent to put his money in the pot and he hadn't been abusing the rules prior.

It's sad when this stuff happens.

Regards, Lee

horrible

only nits would try to ignore the guys intentions and take his verbal announcement.

and this despite the obvious fact that hands hitting the muck are dead.

Honestly, this is one of the few times the word sad actually describes how I feel about a botched ruling.
Incorrect rulings are made all of the time, which isnt surprising given the wide disparity of rules. But this one just seems so ridiculously stupid. Combined with the fact that the players encouraged it, and multiple floormen backed it up; it all just makes me sad.

rereading this has seriously pissed me off

Terrible ruling, if I am the guy with the J9 im fistpump snap calling aswell though, I guess about 1% of the people calling him an ******* would just fold their hand.

this is the correct answer.

Also lol @ asian guy paying up.

WOW. That's all I got. Bad for the game doesn't even begin to describe this....

this story reminded me of a 2+2 magazine article by sklansky where he discusses sitting quietly and waiting for an admitted total novice to flip his hand at showdown on a 6 7 8 9 10 board with no possible flush when they were both all in on the flop.

as i recall, the amateur left the private 5/10NL game and neither sklanksy nor anyone else bothered to stop him. sklanksy (or possibly someone else) even flipped his hand once he was gone, revealing that he had AJ and was entitled to the entire pot.

the article is no longer available, but it was linked here: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/42.../#post26474287

there is also a linked discussion thread in B+M pertaining to the story

lol+1

The guy deliberately exposed his cards with three people yet to act..

If I'm in the hand, I sure as hell don't think that's the least bit "funny", nor should it go unpunished... Nor is there any excuse for it.

The card exposure could have caused someone to lose a stack.. I don't think it's so bad that the guy who exposed them suffered for it, rather than some innocent player.

Lighten up Francis.

By active player do you mean players in the hand? If so was player 2, 3, or 4 the first to call the asian's hand live? Which one chimed in? Terrible ruling but the players who called the asian's hand live are super pathetic. #giveusnamesorpics

if im the player theres no way in hell theyre taking my $$ in this situation

He had 4-2, no part of the board. Explain how anyone could have suffered from it? Once again, he shouldn't have done it, but him losing 5k over a dumb mistake with no consequence is just preposterous.

Are you the type of person who thinks we should kill people who steal? "Well it's not bad that they suffer from it, after all what they did is wrong..." Great analysis...

Scumbags, the lot of them involved! Dirty dirty ruling and outright theft. I will never play in that place.

Me explain? Use your imagination.

lost 5K over a dumb mistake? One? I count three.

1. Fold out of turn. (attempted)
2. Expose those cards with players left to act.
3. Verbally declare a bet as a joke...

The ruling depends on whether or not the hand is dead. If it is dead, the "bet" is null. If the hand is ruled live, the bet, or whatever actions the player declared or took, stands.
That hand is certainly live, as anyone who's played Harrah's events, or anywhere they use PokerTDA rules knows full well.

"So was I; but the dealer and both floormen confirmed that any face-up hand is live regardless of whether or not it touches the muck"

What? If I'm HU against another player, declares FOLD verbally while I throw my cards face-up towards the muck, the hand is considered to be "live"?

Ahahaha!

Tony G acts like such a douche at the table, no sympathy.

They are all part of the same action, so I said one... but if you really want to argue about something that unimportant, then I'll say three and you'll probably sleep better at night...

The question is not whether the "asian guy" did something wrong or not, he did. The question is do the punishment fits the crime? And I think most people agree that it doesn't. You can't follow a rule blindly without looking at the context and the intent. Rules aren't perfect and can't cover every possible situation.

You say the hand is not dead if someone throws it in the muck. So you would say that if player A bet, player B throws is hand face up in the muck. Player A shows a bluff, players B says call... It's okay for player B to win the hand after he threw his hand in the muck? That's what you are saying?

People rarely say "fold", they generally just toss their hand away. If people can now toss their hand away and continue to play... it will create so many problems and situations for angleshooting.

EDIT : I agree with the rule that if the cards hit the muck they can still be live, as it could prevent a situation where a dealer mucks someone's hand without its knowledge. But if a player intentionally throws his hand in the muck? Then I think the hand is dead. The two situations are different, because the intent is not the same.

Did the d$ckhead with j9 immediately rack up or did he stay in the game?
He must have told this story afterwards... someone has to know who he is. A thread should be started about him just like those scammer threads.

God cardrooms are usually so anal about killing hands.

I've seen hands declared dead preflop because someone accidentally mucked too hard and one card hit another player's hole cards behind him in the action.

Ridiculous.

lol at the people ITT calling the asian guy an idiot and having zero sympathy for him. The guy was evidently there having fun and just messing around -- people like him are the backbone of every pro's bankroll, so to be comfortable essentially ousting him from the community is ridiculous and bad for everyone.

Also I have way more hate for player 2/the players advocating for this angle than I do the floor. There's a difference between incompetence and being an outright scumbag, and anyone comfortable taking money from the guy in this situation is by definition a scumbag.

As for angle shooting, you and I agree that rules can't cover everything. There are borderline situations, like the one you illustrate about player B throws is hand face up in the muck. Player A shows a bluff,..

Here, imo, it is player A's responsibility to know the rules. He should know whether or not player B's hand is actually dead, and whether or not it is safe to show the bluff. If he's not sure, he should just wait for the B-hand to be mucked by the dealer.

I have sympathy for the Asian guy, but from the Floor's perspective, the guy not only made three errors, they were all deliberate acts.
On top of that, it's easy to say this guy has no respect for the game, for other players in the hand, or for the rules... which he either didn't bother to learn, or feels entitled to ignore the rules whenever he feels like it..

You are missing the bigger picture here.

I trust you've abandoned any hope of becoming a Supreme Court Justice... although there still might be a Rio floor position for you.

I must have missed the part about him having done this on prior occasions.