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Old 07-09-2012, 02:47 PM   #1
John Wray
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Bizarre hand, questionable ruling at Rio (+bonus questions) NVG edition

(Note: this situation drew a lot of attention in the Pavilion room & was notable enough that I feel it belongs in NVG, but if necessary mods can move it.)

I witnessed one of the strangest things I've ever seen while playing cash at the Rio and imo it brought up some interesting rules & ethics considerations. tl;dr alert

Prologue: It's a very loose 5/10 NLHE cash game at the WSOP that played much higher with double straddles, in-the-dark raises UTG, etc. All players were very deep with the biggest stack around $7k.

Act I: A hand comes up that is initially one of the smallest of the night. On the flop the pot is only ~$300 and all four active players check down a rainbow board of KQxx.

The river is a 10 and the first player to act is the $7k big stack - a nutty Asian guy who speaks in broken English. He stands up and pitches his cards at the muck face up, and we see they're 4s2s -a hand that can't even beat the board. After the hand hits the felt in front of the dealer, Asian Guy jokingly announces "All-in". We roll our eyes at his attempt at humor and the next player to act reaches for chips to take a stab at the pot.

Act II: Suddenly one of the other active players stops the action and tells the dealer that the Asian guy is indeed all-in. We murmur and look at each other, but another active player chimes in, agreeing. Now everyone is chattering, with some players (including me) pointing out that there is absolutely zero chance that the Asian guy's intention was to move all-in, and others claiming the hand is live and that it doesn't matter what his intention was.

The dealer shrugs and explains his understanding of the rules: a face-up hand is live even if it hits the muck. Chaos ensues and the Asian guy goes bananas shouting "I muck! I muck hand!" over and over while reenacting the gesture of throwing the cards away. A floorman is called and once the action is recounted he snap-rules that the dealer is correct and that the hand is live. The shouting goes to 11, a sizable crowd gathers, and Asian Guy has a conniption, demanding confirmation from the senior supervisor. But once called, the senior floorman snap-rules that the snap-rule is correct: the hand is live.

So to recap: Asian Guy has moved all-in for $7,000 into a $300 pot with the nut-low face-up on the table and three players yet to act.

Act III: Player 2 fist-pump insta-ships for ~$5k. The final two players curse the Poker Gods that their hands likely aren't strong enough to win and that stacks aren't deep enough to profitably overcall, and fold. Player 2 flips up J9 for the second nuts and drags a $10,000 pot. Asian Guy howls into his cell phone for a minute, grabs the remnants of his stack and disappears.

Fini

Was this a good ruling? Should the floor have superseded the letter of the law in favor of the spirit of the game and the man's obvious intentions?

If you're the 2nd player to act, what hands do you ship? If you're the 3rd player to act and the 2nd player ships, with what hands do you call? If you're the 4th player and both Players 2 & 3 ship, with what hands to you call?

And if you're Asian Guy, what would be your preferred method of suicide?

Last edited by Videopro; 07-09-2012 at 05:19 PM. Reason: Cross posted with B&M
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Old 07-09-2012, 02:51 PM   #2
pocket_zeros
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re: Bizarre hand, questionable ruling at Rio (+bonus questions) NVG edition

Horrible ruling. The man's intentions were clear and the floor taking such a doctrinaire approach to rule enforcement shows a complete lack of common sense.
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Old 07-09-2012, 02:53 PM   #3
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re: Bizarre hand, questionable ruling at Rio (+bonus questions) NVG edition

Was under the impression that any card that touches the muck is dead.
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Old 07-09-2012, 02:55 PM   #4
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re: Bizarre hand, questionable ruling at Rio (+bonus questions) NVG edition

Terrible ruling. Obv he was joking. Asian guy should have refused to pay and accepted an '86 as I doubt he will ever be back anyway.
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Old 07-09-2012, 02:58 PM   #5
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re: Bizarre hand, questionable ruling at Rio (+bonus questions) NVG edition

Yeah thats a terrible ruling. He got screwed
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Old 07-09-2012, 02:58 PM   #6
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re: Bizarre hand, questionable ruling at Rio (+bonus questions) NVG edition

Completely idiotic ruling. So tilting.

Would go with jumping off the top of the Rio, personally.
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Old 07-09-2012, 02:58 PM   #7
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re: Bizarre hand, questionable ruling at Rio (+bonus questions) NVG edition

Horrible ruling.

Quote:
And if you're Asian Guy, what would be your preferred method of suicide?
Nevada Death Chamber for killing the dealer, the two Floors, the guy who opened his mouth, Player 2, and my ex-wife.
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Old 07-09-2012, 03:01 PM   #8
John Wray
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re: Bizarre hand, questionable ruling at Rio (+bonus questions) NVG edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos_ult View Post
Was under the impression that any card that touches the muck is dead.
So was I; but the dealer and both floormen confirmed that any face-up hand is live regardless of whether or not it touches the muck. In this case it might not have mattered as I don't know if it touched, but good God I'll remember that rule forever.
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Old 07-09-2012, 03:05 PM   #9
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re: Bizarre hand, questionable ruling at Rio (+bonus questions) NVG edition

if im the asian man... i stand up, grab my chips, not leave a single dollar on the table and accept the 86 and any ass beating that comes my way from the guy who shoved 5k
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Old 07-09-2012, 03:05 PM   #10
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re: Bizarre hand, questionable ruling at Rio (+bonus questions) NVG edition

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqMLZcjDWV4 like this hand? ( 0:45)
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Old 07-09-2012, 03:05 PM   #11
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re: Bizarre hand, questionable ruling at Rio (+bonus questions) NVG edition

Bad ruling, I guess technically if the cards never hit the muck that the hand is still live but still his intentions were clearly to muck.
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Old 07-09-2012, 03:06 PM   #12
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re: Bizarre hand, questionable ruling at Rio (+bonus questions) NVG edition

I wish I could say that this ruling surprised me. The WSOP staff does all that they can to reward cheaters, angle shooters, rule nits, etc. If it is remotely in the best interest of the game or fairness, you can count on the Rio ruling going the other way.

The WSOP is a travesty to poker, and they are doing their very best to turn off all newcomers.
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Old 07-09-2012, 03:07 PM   #13
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re: Bizarre hand, questionable ruling at Rio (+bonus questions) NVG edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Wray View Post
So was I; but the dealer and both floormen confirmed that any face-up hand is live regardless of whether or not it touches the muck. In this case it might not have mattered as I don't know if it touched, but good God I'll remember that rule forever.
I have managed poker rooms for over 15 years, I have written 100 rulebooks, and I wrote a column for CardPlayer about rules for over 10 years.

This is possibly the worst ruling I have ever heard of. And that's saying a lot.

Over the last 10 years or so the rules of poker have taken a big step forward, and a lot of that has been predicated on the rules of intent. In general poker rules are best made when they take into account the intent of the players/situation.
And while this player may have "technically" made a mistake with his joke, to rule that he has to bet all-in here is a complete joke. Warn him, kick him out, do anything to make him aware of his error, but that ruling is horrible.

Not that it matters, but a hand touching the muck does not kill it. Any hand that is retrievable "can" be rules live.
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Old 07-09-2012, 03:07 PM   #14
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re: Bizarre hand, questionable ruling at Rio (+bonus questions) NVG edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuaDxAceZ View Post
if im the asian man... i stand up, grab my chips, not leave a single dollar on the table and accept the 86 and any ass beating that comes my way from the guy who shoved 5k
+1. First time I've ever thought that this was the correct action. And if anything, I'm seeking to beat his ass if we ever meet up elsewhere for trying to swindle me (not the other way around).
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Old 07-09-2012, 03:08 PM   #15
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re: Bizarre hand, questionable ruling at Rio (+bonus questions) NVG edition

whats an 86?
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Old 07-09-2012, 03:08 PM   #16
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re: Bizarre hand, questionable ruling at Rio (+bonus questions) NVG edition

I am probably going to be unpopular here, but so what.

If the $7k stack guy just passed face down as normal and kept his mouth shut there would be no problem. Whether or not the ruling is correct or not, the consequences are a direct result of his stupid and unnecessary action.

Sounds to me there was a hint of "Look at me with all this money aren't I funny mucking this sh*t face up lol" - if he was first to act he should have passed face down with action behind him regardless.
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Old 07-09-2012, 03:09 PM   #17
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re: Bizarre hand, questionable ruling at Rio (+bonus questions) NVG edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngusThermopyle View Post
Horrible ruling.



Nevada Death Chamber for killing the dealer, the two Floors, the guy who opened his mouth, Player 2, and my ex-wife.
I hope Player 2 starts dating your ex-wife.
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Old 07-09-2012, 03:09 PM   #18
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re: Bizarre hand, questionable ruling at Rio (+bonus questions) NVG edition

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Originally Posted by TakingIt View Post
whats an 86?
Slang.
Trespassed/kicked out/barred.
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Old 07-09-2012, 03:10 PM   #19
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re: Bizarre hand, questionable ruling at Rio (+bonus questions) NVG edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rzitup View Post
I have managed poker rooms for over 15 years, I have written 100 rulebooks, and I wrote a column for CardPlayer about rules for over 10 years.

This is possibly the worst ruling I have ever heard of. And that's saying a lot.

Over the last 10 years or so the rules of poker have taken a big step forward, and a lot of that has been predicated on the rules of intent. In general poker rules are best made when they take into account the intent of the players/situation.
And while this player may have "technically" made a mistake with his joke, to rule that he has to bet all-in here is a complete joke. Warn him, kick him out, do anything to make him aware of his error, but that ruling is horrible.

Not that it matters, but a hand touching the muck does not kill it. Any hand that is retrievable "can" be rules live.
As a side note, my take on this is based on the information given, and assuming there was nothing that led up to this decision involving this player. Had he been doing this repeatedly, been warned about, then this ruling could be the right one.
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Old 07-09-2012, 03:11 PM   #20
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re: Bizarre hand, questionable ruling at Rio (+bonus questions) NVG edition

i could be wrong but i could of sworn a dealer in the past told me if its multiple ppl in the pot and you expose both cards to the table, i was advised that your hand is dead.... so i would think once he threw it up and still people behind him to act the hand should be dead.... am i wrong to think this??
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Old 07-09-2012, 03:11 PM   #21
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re: Bizarre hand, questionable ruling at Rio (+bonus questions) NVG edition

I will sum up my entire thought process on this (except for your excellent retelling of the story) with one word.

Yuck.
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Old 07-09-2012, 03:16 PM   #22
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re: Bizarre hand, questionable ruling at Rio (+bonus questions) NVG edition

Seems like a technically correct, yet horribly horrible ruling.
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Old 07-09-2012, 03:16 PM   #23
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re: Bizarre hand, questionable ruling at Rio (+bonus questions) NVG edition

Based on OP's info... this has to be the worst ruling I've ever heard. Just points to the top level staff at the WSOP. Intent is clear, the joke is clear. Just ridiculous.

And no... the muck pile is not a magical land of instant dead hands. And no... hands are not dead if exposed (even in tournies). Where do these ideas come from?
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Old 07-09-2012, 03:18 PM   #24
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re: Bizarre hand, questionable ruling at Rio (+bonus questions) NVG edition

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Originally Posted by Matty Oh View Post
And no... the muck pile is not a magical land of instant dead hands. And no... hands are not dead if exposed (even in tournies). Where do these ideas come from?
Various house/tournament rules.
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Old 07-09-2012, 03:18 PM   #25
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re: Bizarre hand, questionable ruling at Rio (+bonus questions) NVG edition

This draconian enforcement of rules disregarding situation or intent is the exact reason I stopped playing at my local charity poker room as soon as another place to play became available.

It would be nice if community backlash led to floormen like this losing their jobs.
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