Better ideas to improve poker "ecology" - Page 2 - Poker News

You guys give recreational players out there too much credit. Most couldn't even recall a players name from a table they just quit. They are just looking at their cards and making their actions based on that. When they lose they don't think "Wow those games are really tough, those guys must be really good, I don't want to play online anymore" Usually it's something more a long the lines of "If this site wasn't so f***** rigged I could easily beat all these idiots."

Most of these guys would keep coming back without a clue and keep playing terribly. However, now most of these players after losing their initial deposit(s), make a quick google search on poker strategy. They don't learn much at first, but they learn enough not to call with ATC and call down with any pair, and thats why the games aren't as soft as 06 before all the training sites and strategy forums taught everyone how to play. A ton of players at low stakes are still terribad and just play their own cards, but they aren't as bad as back then. Doesn't mean the games aren't beatable, you just don't see the same crazy winrates. Fish will keep coming in, but they all eventually get better unless they're completely ******ed. This means less and less fish as back then, because back then they would just keep coming back and playing the same, and never improving. It doesn't mean the markets dried up. I wonder how many sign ups stars gets per day? I bet it would be a ton, but most people try it once and never play again, or they decide to look up a bit of strategy and bank roll management and are at least slightly better then your average fish of 06.

tl;dr
training sites and strategy forums like this one are to blame for games getting worse.

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03-02-2013 , 06:01 AM

#27

00001

old hand

Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 1,511

rig the deck ( more )

sites hire pros to be online 24\7 and help players - put a button on table "call for pro assistance"

regs must play a random hand 15m in 15m for the whole stack and when that happen all table is allerted "regular player is all in with a random hand"

ofc ban huds and only 1 table

cant checkraise (its bad)

joker in the deck

more rake (60bb\100) (noone wins) noone laughts at the end

virtual stripers on the tables.

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03-02-2013 , 06:54 AM

#28

xalas

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Mandatory BRM is not a good idea, bad players don't understand the concept and will deposit $250 in order to play $2/$4 or play the Sunday million

could you imagine someone who likes to deposit $200-$300 after they get their pay check at the end of the week being told on a pop-up that what they need to do if they want to play is first save up until they have $2000+ or worst they they obey the 3-5% model of BRM?

just how many people do you think will want to play the SM if they find out they must deposit $2000 or $4000 just to play a $215 tourney ?

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03-02-2013 , 07:30 AM

#29

ChicagoRy

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Tall

#0 Eliminate Heads-Up tables.

I believe a better idea for the heads up cash games you suggest eliminating would simply be to add minimum hand requirements to any game where a player sits another player.

Further, you could also start charging proportional rake as the buyins increase (rather than capped rake).

A better idea for ecology than what sites are currently doing: Make the "tiers" and segregation ideas revolve around the winrate of the opponents you face, rather than punishing players for pure winnings.

Example - A top level pro plays 10,000 hands and the average hand is against a player in the 50% range of winrate/success. A moderate winner plays 10,000 hands, but his average hand is against a player with in the bottom 10% of success.

The latter player would be better to exclude than the big winner, when balancing the needs of players (ability to improve and profit from our game, competition) and the needs of the site (stretching the avg rake dollar further).

In essence, punish those that pick on weak players more than those that simply crush and if reg A wants to play a bunch vs reg B, reward him by giving him more opportunity against the fish.

*I don't know segregation or ecology details, but I don't think they are quite what I suggest. I think they focus more on punishing winners and sectioning off bad players and don't take into consideration the value and fairness of competition.

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03-02-2013 , 10:09 AM

#30

IhateJJ

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Tall

#0 Eliminate Heads-Up tables.

Yesterday evening on Full Tilt Poker there were 255 Holdem tables open at 10/20 and higher, with exactly one player sitting at each table. There were exactly zero tables running with more than one player. Most of these tables were heads up tables.

(I started a thread last night to discuss this, but it was deleted. I guess for the good of the poker ecology.)

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03-02-2013 , 10:22 AM

#31

jukofyork

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ruo42

lower the damn rake ez game

This.

Juk

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03-02-2013 , 10:55 AM

#32

BRpokah

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To prevent bumhunting I think something along the lines of having players pay a deposit to sit at a table(say $10 for N100) and have this deposit be gradually refunded to you as you play x number of hands + you get kicked out of table(and lose your deposit) if you sit out for a certain period of time.

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03-02-2013 , 11:36 AM

#33

Birchinio

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Quote:

Originally Posted by BRpokah

To prevent bumhunting I think something along the lines of having players pay a deposit to sit at a table(say $10 for N100) and have this deposit be gradually refunded to you as you play x number of hands + you get kicked out of table(and lose your deposit) if you sit out for a certain period of time.

You realise that if it was made really hard to bumhunt at stakes below say, 600nl, everybody would be broke? The edges people have vs other regs at lower limits is so small that the rake would eat everyone alive... Measures to stop people instantly sitting out when a fish busts etc I can understand, but forcing regs to play each other at 100nl isn't gonna help the economy, it just means more rake for the poker sites.

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03-02-2013 , 11:42 AM

#34

MyStarsIDSucks

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It's simple: Kill the Batman.

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03-02-2013 , 12:16 PM

#35

G1lius

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King of the hill for HU

More promos like those freeroll redeposit things. Things intended for new players.
More TV/real life commercials.

Make it a more fun environment. Make 3D tables available in the client, encourage chatting, make your account linkable with facebook, force actual pictures of the people playing.

Forcing deep stacks isn't fish friendly. Moving to a pay-to-play system isn't fish-friendly.
It's all about getting new players in, and getting them to stay.

Educating the fish is also great for the ecology, but I guess this isn't so popular.

edit: ow, and yeah, kill the batman.

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03-02-2013 , 12:32 PM

#36

iOWNyou

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilbury Twist

To the OP: it probably doesn't change anything, or much. If someone is willing to put all or most of their current account balance on the table, they're probably the types who are willing to redeposit if they lose it.

To iOWNyou: have the sites not tried running tables with higher minimum buy-ins? If so, perhaps these didn't generate the rake that a short stack-friendly game would (or does). All in all, though, it seems any room -- virtual or B&M -- would want to create a situation that a) gets more hands to the flop and b) sees bigger pots when doing so. It seems an ante would achieve this, and yet I haven't seen or heard of many games with an ante.

Absolutely they have tried it although they have been unsuccessful. Of course the current situation is not the most profitable for the casinos. However, this is what it will take to save the games long term. Eventually, this should be the only format offered by the sites. Currently, they do not care about the games being beatable. Eventually, they will have to.

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03-02-2013 , 12:52 PM

#37

richdog

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Quote:

Originally Posted by UKZodiac

Ban huds. Limit players to one table.

Maybe even take out hand history files. Actually definitely not maybe.

I know I'll get flamed for this but whatever.

I'd agree with this but set the limit at 4 tables as opposed to one - this is for cash games only though - you should be allowed more entries for tournaments I think.

Stakes like 10NL should be purely for recreational players and people trying to run up bankrolls from next to nothing. There shouldn't be 'pros' playing 24+ tables at these stakes.

Get rid of huds and lower the amount of tables for each player imo.

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03-02-2013 , 12:55 PM

#38

BRpokah

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To fix the heads up lobby situation specifically(right now on Party there are 4 game running and 133 tables with a player waiting for a fish at NL100).

NL100
You pay a $10 deposit to sit down
Every 10 hands you play $1 is deposited back to your account
If you sit out for 3 minutes when an opponent is sitting in you get kicked out of the table and your deposit goes to your opponent
Plus some rule that if no one sits on your table you get your deposit back(dont know how that would work yet)

And for 6-max something along those lines also but would have to be a little different.

Last edited by BRpokah; 03-02-2013 at 01:23 PM.

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03-02-2013 , 01:10 PM

#39

leviathan74

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Eliminate any kind of Table Selection, Establish Random Assignment of Seats.

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03-02-2013 , 01:31 PM

#40

frenchfish

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Having a verry simple HUD (vpip/pfr/AF/3bet%) available for all players on the site with options to make it a little more sophisticated if the player wants to.

Since not alowing HUDS is not enforceable, this seems ike the next best solution to me.

Also maybe offer optional equity insurance directly on the site to have people push smaller edges and make tables a little more gambling happ. Also might be benefical in regards to fishs that can t handle variance verry well.

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03-02-2013 , 01:36 PM

#41

treefingers

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Quote:

Originally Posted by leviathan74

Eliminate any kind of Table Selection, Establish Random Assignment of Seats.

wouldn't regs just quit the tough games they get assigned to and keep the good ones? seems like it will naturally select itself out.

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03-02-2013 , 02:43 PM

#42

UKZodiac

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Quote:

Originally Posted by richdog

I'd agree with this but set the limit at 4 tables as opposed to one - this is for cash games only though - you should be allowed more entries for tournaments I think.

Stakes like 10NL should be purely for recreational players and people trying to run up bankrolls from next to nothing. There shouldn't be 'pros' playing 24+ tables at these stakes.

Get rid of huds and lower the amount of tables for each player imo.

Good point about tournaments, for mtts at least.

Most of the people I know that play online have done so for quite a few years but are still fish, net depositors for sure, and also have a lot of misconceptions about the game. However, they absolutely will not play on sites that are supported by the two large tracking programs or where they perceive that there are a lot of multi tabling regs. They give no consideration as to how safe their money is as they don't hold significant sums on the site at any one time.

I think that it is no coincidence that the softest games are found on sites not covered by the trackers and who's software make it difficult or impossible to mass multi table.

On the couple of such sites that I occasionally play on, the games tend to be more sociable as people don't have a dozen tables to monitor. I can still make a similar rate as it is "safer" to play higher there.

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03-02-2013 , 03:29 PM

#43

JPE23

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There is NO way in reality.

Since 2008

- The world is in the biggest financial crisis it's ever seen since 1929
- People no longer have as much disposable income
- The US market has been pretty much obliterated
- Numerous other developed countries have been segregated
- People have become better at NLHE
- There are no viable alternatives for players other than the Stars/Tilt duopoly
- The game isn't/has never been properly regulated
- People cheat/colllude/scam too much

So on and so forth. Get real...

Unless the economy improves and more huge competitors emerge, poker has a limited shelf life. The only people that are OK are people who're already set for life from the game or those who play for fun.

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03-02-2013 , 04:23 PM

#44

leviathan74

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Quote:

Originally Posted by treefingers

wouldn't regs just quit the tough games they get assigned to and keep the good ones? seems like it will naturally select itself out.

Not if you are forced to play for a time or get kicked out of all games for a reasonably lenghty time frame like an hour or so.

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03-02-2013 , 07:28 PM

#45

frenchfish

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old hand

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Rake higher stakes properly, seems crazy all this measures taken against regs, yet the best and richer regs are the one who have been paying the smaller rakes all this years ... Like having a 100 K pot raked 50 bucks instead of 3 is gonna make the big game players hoose a site over another...

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03-02-2013 , 09:33 PM

#46

mjcace

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Lower the Rakes, its obv

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03-03-2013 , 01:11 AM

#47

frenchfish

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Can someone explain me why lowering the rake is a good idea in the actual context ?? It mostly beneficiate the grinders and has a little impact on the casual players, this will just create more full time regs and kill the fish a little faster. People that keep saying "lol ez lower the rake" are levelling or am i missing something here?

It s like an entreprise who tries to still have good profitability in a dificult economic climat, and all the employee decide to sit down at a table to try to find solutions in order to keep their jobs and some employes keep scraming "it s EZ they should raise our salary"

Seems better idea to increase the rake....at least on higher stakes where it s ridiculously low.

Last edited by frenchfish; 03-03-2013 at 01:19 AM.

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03-03-2013 , 01:37 AM

#48

p2 dog, p2

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^^^^^^^the ****?^^^^^^^

Except employees aren't paying for a service OMG

c'mon OP, do u want pokerstars to spoon feed you and help you tie your shoes to?

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03-03-2013 , 01:47 AM

#49

Adebisi

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Sites need to get rid of rake back and use that money to attract new fish. They should use some sort of market research to identify potential problem gamblers then send them an email where they get a free $100 to play with if they open an account. Limit the the stakes they can play with the free money so they don't lose it all in 2 minutes. Once they bust the free 100, offer them a 100% deposit bonus on any deposit $400 and up but have a really long play through requirement.

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03-03-2013 , 01:51 AM

#50

StarsPro

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For online poker

1# Add 7-2 tables

#2 Bring back bad beat jackpots

3# Incorporate built-in player stats look-up and graph results, etc

#4 Stop segregating players (lock).
Your MO is a disgrace to the online poker industry.

#6 Add speed tables (gotta act quick)

7# like OP but Never mandatory but can request from support to add a BR Managament feature for those who request it.

8# super quick cashouts

9# add deepstack cg's + antes

10# internet poker back to usa and ap ftp players get all funds returned

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