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Better ideas to improve poker "ecology" Better ideas to improve poker "ecology"

03-03-2013 , 04:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unabridged
eliminate rake, charge a monthly fee like $10 to play as much as you want. in terms of online gaming there is nothing special about poker, in fact its much much simpler than running servers for an mmo.
I'm not familiar with either, but how could this be the case?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UKZodiac
Ban huds. Limit players to one table.

Maybe even take out hand history files. Actually definitely not maybe.

I know I'll get flamed for this but whatever.
Hand histories are provided to allow players to safeguard against bots and cheating. Limiting the tables isn't a bad idea, but capping it at 1 is awful.
Better ideas to improve poker "ecology" Quote
03-03-2013 , 06:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by UKZodiac
Ban huds. Limit players to one table.

Maybe even take out hand history files. Actually definitely not maybe.

I know I'll get flamed for this but whatever.
that's the correct plan if somebody really wants to fix online poker...Doubt anybody does though..
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03-04-2013 , 02:07 AM
1) Limit the number of tables you can play on a site. Reasons should be obvious.

2) Eliminate HU tables. Joe Tall and others have thoroughly explained this. Would just like to add back in the early Party Poker days you could still create private tables with passwords that didn't show up in the lobby. If two people really wanted to play HU sites could still implement this kind of thing...

3) Allow frequent name changes (I personally would say anonymous tables are best but I know plenty disagree with this). Long term losing players do feel embarrassed about their losing. Let them gain a new identity frequently.

4) Filter bonuses away from the 20 table grinders and towards acquisition/retention of recreation players via an increased advertising revenue and offering larger reload deposits to habitual losers. IMO a 100% reload bonus up to $200 offered to your whole player pool is substantially less good for the poker ecology than offering a 500% reload bonus to your top 20% largest losing but still occasionally active players.

5) Have stakes capped lower than they are now. 10/20 at NL/PL and $50/100 for limit (or maybe even $30/60) is big enough. Someone losing their whole roll/savings in one night or losing life changing money is not good for the game in the long run -- the media runs with these kind of stories, and someone that gets fleeced entirely will never be back. These stakes are still high enough that a recreational player in it can still feel like they're a "high roller," but not so high that they can destroy their lives in one night of gambling in it. Plus these stakes still attract a guy who deposits $300-500 and wants to take a shot at running it up quickly...

6) Do more promotions involving limit games. Let's just face it, the reality is a losing player gets more bang for his buck in limit games and has a better chance of going on a winning rush. Offer happy hours that only involve limit games, offer other bonuses such as high hand of the hr etc only at limit tables... Do whatever it takes to drive more of your casual players towards giving a limit game a try.

7) At stakes where only a few games run, have them set up in must-move fashion. Fish feel less targeted with this kind of system. If a game at $100/200 lhe gets going with a fish in it, the only way you remain on the wait list is if you play in a must move game. Don't play the must move game, you aren't on the list. Miss too many hands in an hour stretch at the must move and you get booted off the table/list. This will prevent a fish from feeling embarrassed when they realize that every time they play a game a 20 name wait list gets developed. Once a wait list of 4 names is on a list a new table spawns and asks you to get seated and play, or be removed from the list and not be allowed back on the list for another 15 minutes.
Better ideas to improve poker "ecology" Quote
03-04-2013 , 02:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schneids
1) Limit the number of tables you can play on a site. Reasons should be obvious.

2) Eliminate HU tables. Joe Tall and others have thoroughly explained this. Would just like to add back in the early Party Poker days you could still create private tables with passwords that didn't show up in the lobby. If two people really wanted to play HU sites could still implement this kind of thing...

3) Allow frequent name changes (I personally would say anonymous tables are best but I know plenty disagree with this). Long term losing players do feel embarrassed about their losing. Let them gain a new identity frequently.

4) Filter bonuses away from the 20 table grinders and towards acquisition/retention of recreation players via an increased advertising revenue and offering larger reload deposits to habitual losers. IMO a 100% reload bonus up to $200 offered to your whole player pool is substantially less good for the poker ecology than offering a 500% reload bonus to your top 20% largest losing but still occasionally active players.

5) Have stakes capped lower than they are now. 10/20 at NL/PL and $50/100 for limit (or maybe even $30/60) is big enough. Someone losing their whole roll/savings in one night or losing life changing money is not good for the game in the long run -- the media runs with these kind of stories, and someone that gets fleeced entirely will never be back. These stakes are still high enough that a recreational player in it can still feel like they're a "high roller," but not so high that they can destroy their lives in one night of gambling in it. Plus these stakes still attract a guy who deposits $300-500 and wants to take a shot at running it up quickly...

6) Do more promotions involving limit games. Let's just face it, the reality is a losing player gets more bang for his buck in limit games and has a better chance of going on a winning rush. Offer happy hours that only involve limit games, offer other bonuses such as high hand of the hr etc only at limit tables... Do whatever it takes to drive more of your casual players towards giving a limit game a try.

7) At stakes where only a few games run, have them set up in must-move fashion. Fish feel less targeted with this kind of system. If a game at $100/200 lhe gets going with a fish in it, the only way you remain on the wait list is if you play in a must move game. Don't play the must move game, you aren't on the list. Miss too many hands in an hour stretch at the must move and you get booted off the table/list. This will prevent a fish from feeling embarrassed when they realize that every time they play a game a 20 name wait list gets developed. Once a wait list of 4 names is on a list a new table spawns and asks you to get seated and play, or be removed from the list and not be allowed back on the list for another 15 minutes.
Excellent suggestions.I think you nailed it with the "Must Move" scenario the most imo.Very good idea
Better ideas to improve poker "ecology" Quote
03-04-2013 , 03:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Digger
that's the correct plan if somebody really wants to fix online poker...Doubt anybody does though..
I don't think missing out on a hud prevents any good player from profiting. Also the % of players using one isn't as high as you would think.
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03-04-2013 , 03:45 AM
Schneids, is limit poker your main game?
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03-04-2013 , 04:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by siebenacht
I don't think missing out on a hud prevents any good player from profiting. Also the % of players using one isn't as high as you would think.
Some fish know they exist and feel they are at too big a disadvantage and it puts them off playing.

Improving the Eco system is as much about dealing with the views of fish as anything (whether or not those views are factually accurate).

Removing huds will probably reduce the number of mass multi tablers as well.
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03-04-2013 , 04:22 AM
Double post.
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03-04-2013 , 05:25 AM
guys

you know what people want so much in this world ! a ****in unique avatar and stuff. thats why you will win 10$ cash bonus for winning 5 heads up. 10$ bonus for suckout the AA with KK 5 times, and stuff like that. someone who win a milestone hand have a unique stars. someone who kill a pro have a t-shirt....

now poker is just money money money, no more fun stuff
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03-04-2013 , 05:27 AM
and there is so much people in this world who wants to play real money but they dont want to deposit. give theses guys a free 8$

i started real money poker in 2009 because stars gave me 5$ free
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03-04-2013 , 06:48 AM
Any effort to control, or direct a consumer's decision to spend his/her money, beyond offering attractive alternatives, is worth avoiding. These business will be forced to remove such ridiculous controls as consumers leave the tables and flock to the competition. Just a matter of time, and of course, intelligent consumers that don't hesitate making a rational buying (where to play) decision.
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03-04-2013 , 06:48 AM
I always thought that stuff like forced straddle games and ante games would always be a big positive for the poker landscape. Just give action players a better chance to win. Eventually the action players just quit because they realize that they are going to lose a huge percentage of their sessions just because they want to play more hands.
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03-04-2013 , 06:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Percival
Any effort to control, or direct a consumer's decision to spend his/her money, beyond offering attractive alternatives, is worth avoiding. These business will be forced to remove such ridiculous controls as consumers leave the tables and flock to the competition. Just a matter of time, and of course, intelligent consumers that don't hesitate making a rational buying (where to play) decision.
the majority of players lose money. so they might enjoy a game where there are more gambling players and less 24 tabling nit grinders. so the intelligent player might move his poker action to a site where he does not have to play with the winning grinders. i don't really know.

it sounds like a few sites are trying the segregating player pool angle. honestly, don't think its the best idea. grinders pay rake too. although getting rake from a fish is better than rake from the grinder. the best solution is probably something like rush poker where people can play hands quicker and it does not discriminate against the fish as much.

maybe rush poker with no huds is the answer. i don't really know.

party poker has never been the smartest company in the world but they must have some reason for trying it.
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03-04-2013 , 07:25 AM
+1 to getting rid of huds
Better ideas to improve poker "ecology" Quote
03-04-2013 , 07:38 AM
i don't really like many of these ideas over regulation hurts business and will hurt poker too, if it ain't broke don't fix it
poker was at it's best when countries all over the world could play and compete , player pool segregation is a new bad idea but it was the segregation that has taken place over the last few years by nations the .it .fr etc. the lost of us players + the 2008 financial crisis and it aftermath has more to do with the sluggish poker economy then the lack of ecology improvements, more freedom globally is whats needed not regulations or incentives to help poor preforming players

i would allow everything rush, HUs turbo hyperturbos HUDS OPR PTR everything!

you want new fish then fight for more freedoms , i dream of the day poker is truly global again, but it's no telling how long that will be or the all the misidentification of the problems in poker
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03-04-2013 , 08:46 AM
Ya what xalas said. Nothing's wrong with how it is now. Getting crushed at poker? Get better.

I want global so bad. I want the old days. I looked at traffic reports for like the first time ever yesterday and couldn't believe how many pokerstars there were. So pokerstars.fr ppl don't play pokerstars.it players for example?

I hate this. I want to be able to log onto any site and want that for everyone globally
Better ideas to improve poker "ecology" Quote
03-04-2013 , 09:13 AM
Form a lobbying group for and consisting primarily of online poker players to further the interests of online poker players.

Oh...and lower the rake at micro and small stakes.
Better ideas to improve poker "ecology" Quote
03-04-2013 , 09:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by IhateJJ
Yesterday evening on Full Tilt Poker there were 255 Holdem tables open at 10/20 and higher, with exactly one player sitting at each table. There were exactly zero tables running with more than one player. Most of these tables were heads up tables.

(I started a thread last night to discuss this, but it was deleted. I guess for the good of the poker ecology.)
This shows the current system is clearly broken.

This situation was bound to result from recent trends:

- more player education
- better tools (HUDs etc)
- much wider use of tools
- average experience of players increasing
- lower fish/shark ratio

Essentially the games have become much tougher and edges thinner. Today the difference between 95%+ of players at any BI is less than the rake. The pool of money donated by poor play has shrunk. Previously that pool was shared between the sites and the winning players. Now the pool is shrinking but the sites are still taking the same cut so the winners are suffering.

As these trends have progressed the sharks, equipped with third party software, have become increasingly efficient at identifying and devouring the fish. The inevitable result is that the sites are desperately trying to protect the fish so that the average new player will last more than the couple of months they do today. They realise that if they don't then their businesses will die. I understand what motivates them but would prefer that they adopt different strategies.

Basically huds are killing the game. Ban them.

Agree w/: ban huds (or allow annual sn changes/anonymous tables), reduce rake, limit #tables (6?), don't give choice of tables.
Better ideas to improve poker "ecology" Quote
03-04-2013 , 10:09 AM
- Lower rake obv, heck even make a rake-free hour once in a while
- Ban all kinds of 3rd party software and tracking sites (even when you're not playing, like SNG Wizard and Sharkscope) and limit the number of simultaneous tables to 4 or 6
- Lower time banks so that multitablers don't stall the game so much and get punished more often; automuck by default
- Allow SN changes often and/or don't display players' full SN in hand histories (like Seat 6: Gamb******)
- Don't offer the option to choose tables or seats, players must join a global list and be assigned seats randomly/as they are available with must move
- Small no-deposit bonuses to all new accounts (888 does it)
- Direct cash VIP rakeback (FTP Edge), fish will love to "get paid to play"
- Lower the prices in VIP stores, especially those merchandising items (I don't want to pay $400 in rake just to advertise for a site). People love to show off they play poker
- Offer real-life prizes for the bigger tournaments (such as what PS do with their COOP series)
- Make bonuses, whatever they are, to games other than Hold'em. People get sick of it sometimes and don't wish to donk money away at the other games.
- Offer videogame/Zynga-like achievements in the game. It may sound childish and stupid but gameification is kind of a worldwide trend, why not implement it in RM poker? With an option to opt out of them for sure
- Mix more social media into the game (boom hand replayer is on the right track imo), like the ability to tweet/fb your current table so that your friends rail you, or a fb live stream (no game, just an observer stream)

And the main ones:

- Offer more deposit/withdrawal/currency options for players outside of the Dollar/Euro zones. It's super hard to play when your country doesn't have one of these - you're left to either an international credit card or P2P dealing, and both offer absurd conversion rates (pay too much, get back too little) and you're vulnerable to all kinds of scams.

- F***ing stop spreading around that poker is a serious, strategical game. Make people think they can beat it with any two cards. We don't care for what society thinks, just let the fish have fun while we collect the monies.

Last edited by GambitMaia; 03-04-2013 at 10:36 AM. Reason: Added a few ideas, the last one lately
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03-04-2013 , 10:48 AM
lolz at banning things like SNGwiz, so we cant study? thats against the rules to now. u cant talk about holdem amongst your peers either, that is unacceptable.
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03-04-2013 , 10:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p2 dog, p2
lolz at banning things like SNGwiz, so we cant study? thats against the rules to now. u cant talk about holdem amongst your peers either, that is unacceptable.
Yep, ban things like SNGwiz, TableNinja, AHK scripts and every 3rd party software there is. If you can't use it live, you can't use it online either.
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03-04-2013 , 11:32 AM
okay but u can still study away from the tables if u play live. lets ban mathbooks to so kids cant learn that way, they should do trial and error only, no aids. all sngwiz is, is a study tool, there is 0 reason it should be banned. its like college, investing in education
Better ideas to improve poker "ecology" Quote
03-04-2013 , 11:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by falldown
Rake is too low. Raise it and give stuff/money back to losing players.
Loled hard
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03-04-2013 , 11:43 AM
HUDs don't put fish off poker. I have fishy friends who play occasional online poker. They've seen me playing with a HUD but they don't see the value in them. I can talk them to death about bb/100, having a clearer idea of villain ranges etc etc and it's like talking to a wall. All they care about is being able to do it 'their way'. No matter what way you try to tell them they are convinced that poker is gambling and any 2 cards are just as likely to win as any other 2.

I'd love to see 'free' tournament tickets/ring game tickets given out randomly to fish who then have to earn a certain amount of rake/loyalty points to unlock them. Anything really that could be added to make fish feel they've won something that they will lose if they don't keep playing. The same strategy works so well for MMORPG's and keeps players hooked because if they don't keep playing they lose things which they previously earnt (I know 'Stars does this with VIP club ratings but I don't know how much fish buy into that strategy).

Why not even go down the TF2/Dota2 route and give out some kind of 'treasure chest' with a random prize inside (which could be Loyalty points or t$ or ring game tickets or anything really that would appeal to fish) to fish every now and then. Only stipulation is they must earn a certain rake/loyalty pts amount to open the chest.

I know these ideas seem gimmicky for grinders and people who make their living from the game but these principals work really well in other games to keep players hooked.
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03-04-2013 , 12:02 PM
1. Limiting the number of tables to something like 4 or 6 is probably the single biggest change that should be made imo.

2. Lowering(nearly eliminating) bonuses for regs and giving losing players large bonuses would go hand in hand with #1.
Imagine taking all of the bonuses away from an 8 tabling 200nl reg. This is probably something like $2000 per month just in rakeback. Now you could go to 20 different losing players and say, 'deposit $500 and receive an INSTANT free $100 bonus'. You've now retained 20 players instead of 1 for the same cost, and these players are relatively likely to redeposit even after their $600 is busted.

3. Anonymous tables or frequent name changes. Both of these need to be coupled with better 3rd party regulation as well as excellent internal security/bot detection.
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