i cant believe people are comparing live-advisor tools to studying solvers off the table

this is like comparing a swimmer who uses fins in training to a guy who is using invisible fins in competition to blow everyone out of the water. accidental pun

the fact that you guys are tearing apart OP is whack af. none of your criticisms have merit and they are all beside the point: someone potentially stole a lot of money from OP and a gang of other people. the site isnt helping. doesnt anyone want to focus on whats important?

OP's original complaint is totally reasonable, how else is someone soposed to come forewards? he has been totally transparent. he is just a typical HUPLO grinder, why are all of you deconstructing his posts and drawing parallels between him and the alledged?!?

The presence of a security department and their own presentation about what they're doing in no way speaks to the reality of what the level of that security department's effectiveness is. We all know that their methods of preventing, deterring and keeping bots out of the games are not very effective.

I'm not sure how bad and widespread of an issue there is with bots at the stakes these guys play at. Bots have been, and continue to be, a huge issue from the micro-mid stakes on many sites, but this network is consistently one of the absolute poorest with prevention and removal.

One of the best laughs I've in quite a while came from a Phil Nagy quote on your site.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...&postcount=105

I mean... the words say "very low" and are in bright green...what more does he need to say :P

If this is 'crushing' nowadays poker is pretty dead. You made 10evbb bumhunting. Whooptiedoo

i would have thought short stacking PLO HU would be the first target for bots so I'm actually surprised this thread didn't come up sooner

the simple solution vs bots is to have deeeep stacked tables, like 1000BB for PLO and 300-500 for NLHE

the problem is the ppl running the sites don't actually play poker so their rules are allowing cheating, imo it would be hard for a GTO bot to beat a human at 500bb starting stack

It's clearly for good reason since Stars isn't supported for obvious reasons and many of the other bigger regulated sites are listed as Medium Risk in a rather foreboding burnt orange.

Honestly Solvers are like chess engines.

Using them away from the board is absolutely fine, all players use databases and engines you simply cant be good if you dont. But so much as glancing at an engine or database during a game is cheating plain and simple

Except that I played a large number of hands against either a bot or the best player in the world...

I've played every one of the the great players that posted in the thread and have actually be chastised by a friend for never game selecting.

You guys are killing me with these contradictions lol

100% agree. Unfortunately, this happens a lot in chess too. A significant number of the "child prodigies" nowadays are just cheating in the bathroom with their smartphones

I agree. This will be true for a little while I think

he's still bitter about his ban

I still can't believe they just axed all HU cash, anyone think there's a chance they'll bring it back under a revised format? I wonder how many people cashed out balance, at least they did pay out quickly as always.

The fact that they said its a policy change and not "under review" makes me think its gone for a long time

This is a quote from the Internet Poker sub-forum

I think that was referencing bringing back The Punta Cana Poker Classic, which the two posts above were asking for, although Winning_TD didn't clarify what they were talking about.

What you suggest is never, and I mean, never, going to happen. HUHU is a drain on the overall poker ecology. It is not profitable for poker sites to run. There is no incentive to offer this game from a business standpoint. In fact, there would be disincentive as it would cost them more money to process the deposits and withdrawals than sites would collect in rake from a deep stacked HUHU structure.

I don't think you can make this statement with any degree of certainty. You yourself have come out against other sites with botting issues. Every site has them. Even the put on a pedestal Poker Stars has bots as evidenced myriad times here at 2+2 with massive bot rings being exposed.

We simply do not know, collectively as players, how many bots are detected and shut down versus how many are not. For all we know, 95% of them are shut down and what we suspect as being bots are those that are smart enough to fly under the radar for extended periods of time.

I do have an idea for a great story, but I don't have the time or the resources to pull it off. If any one wants to learn how to bot and work with us on a an expose', feel free to contact me. I'd like to truly get to the bottom of this and find out once and for all who really is lax with security, and who is not.

--
Kahn

That is correct. In his defense, his post was actually in another thread that was merged into the WPN thread, but you can see what he was replying to in the title of his post.

Don't even know why I'm posting, no site ever removed HU then came back like "hey guys, we've made it better and re-introduced HU with a better format". It's GG as always and we won't hear another word past 'management decision, no plans to alter".

To be fair it was probably on the chopping block already, if even connected to this thread.

Based on your response I assume you meant to include the other part of my post in the quote.

I agree that it's highly likely that every site has bots on them. I'm certain that the majority of them have at some point. I know that Stars has had issues in the past. The difference is that some of these sites do a noticeably better job keeping bots out of the games. It's not hard at all to tell which sites these are for someone who has been playing online poker and tracking bots for years. The bot forums also provide pretty good information about what sites come with the most risk.

We can be pretty certain about how big of a bot issue some of these sites have with statistical database analysis. Finding bot accounts on the Winning Poker Network is very easy. There are sites dedicated to datamining hands from their games. You can download these hands to your database and locate all of the accounts with high volume that have statistics commonly found in bot accounts. You will notice unique statistical similarities across multiple accounts that would not be found in most real players. If you want you can then go observe these accounts at the tables and you'll notice tendencies that are common among bots, but not among real players.

If you choose to report the accounts to the sites you can be pretty certain about how good of a job they do based on how many are still around in the next few weeks.

Ask the OP from this thread how many of the accounts he listed are still active. Last time I asked him he said the problem was getting worse. https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...e-bot-1727995/

Let's say they shut down 300 new bots a month, but 100, that we are certain of, remain for multiple months on end. I'd still say that they are inefficient and doing a poor job when the data, confirming these accounts are bots, can easily be found.


Not only would you be breaking the terms of service with these sites and risking your account, but you'd also be cheating the legitimate players. I wouldn't recommend anyone to do this without some reassurance that they would not be risking their account and that the cheated players would be reimbursed.

If someone could gather a good amount of insight doing this at several sites for an extended period of time I do think it would be a very fascinating article that I would love to read. It's just not something I'd be willing to spend time doing, especially without the reassurances I mentioned above.

Hi Cory!

Do you mind posting some clear evidence in the thread or PM? A relevant sample of solver-approved perfect preflop and/or postflop play, or something like that?

I've been a part of the HS-pool for a while, but never been a part of the HS-community and never been using any sorts of solvers to improve my game. Instead I've been focusing on other elements in the game to improve.

Reason I'm asking is that I've played Kidopham myself and trying to get at least parts of the money I lost to him reimbursed.
I played him over a very low sample due to the nature that I found him very suspicious with his "bot"-like style. After losing some money to him and after railing him for a while I decided to cash out my money from ACR and wait untill he got outed by other regulars that got a more theoretical approach, instead of whining with no clear evidence myself.

Being on the "top" of the foodchain in a certain format in poker is almost like playing chess. You know what "moves" to expect from a human being i certain spots and you basically know when you is cheated by an engine. I find it very clear that Kidopham have been cheating in some way or another, even though I've lost more to the threadstarter that got a veeery theoretical approach to the game.
It is possible to spot the difference of the players, even over a very low sample, if you play on these stakes.

I also find it somewhat suspicious that ACR decide to remove the entire HU-lobby only one day after KidoPham got outed as a "bot"/tool-assisted player.
Funny coincidence when a obviously tool-assisted player have been cleaning the site for almost a year.

no love/sympathy for HU bumhunters, the removal of those tables is actually better for the site and the rest of the playing population/non-HU regs in the long run

no bumhunting on ACR since it was kingofthehill

"HU bumhunters" is just an expression

the point stands tho

There are more bumhunting 6-max than any other format, so your point is only valid if you talk about poker in general. And the sites even punish the tables-startes 6-max by allowing seating-scripts and not lowering rake for tablestarters.
6-max formats except zoom would be entirely dead if it wasn't for a few tablestarters that is comfortable playing shorthanded against bumhunters with bad position on the recreational player. Usually this is a heads up player that wants action from weak bumhunters and dont care to much about the recreational player that the game is built around.

idk what youre going on about but high stakes HU games are bad for the ecosystem because it provides an opportunity for whales to spew off huge amounts of money to a small group of people in relatively short time frames, and the sites dont like it because those deposits get raked at a lower rate compared to other formats

nobody who is not a HS HU reg itt should be complaining about this end result