Wait a minutes,.. since when did tournament career winnings become how we judge HS Cash game players skill levels?

The best part of his post is that he misspelled my name so the player with 2.7k in live earnings isn't me AND no one thinks Thang "Kido" Pham and Kidopham the ACR player are the same person. He had two points to his post and went 0/2

Insert Russell Crowe "Are you not entertained?!" Gladiator meme

In. popcorn.gif

They have bots at .10 plo that unsurprisingly crush, but I didn’t think there were real time bots that could beat high stakes across multiple tables. Insightful posts from OP and others

Clearly he has great attention to details,...

This

But at least H0Rus pays his taxes

Nothing insightful from OP, just unfounded accusations.

There are bots at every stake up to PLO2000 on WPN, and they win because players are bad.

There is absolutely no evidence other than baseless accusations that kidopham was a bot.

What exactly constitutes as "evidence" when you are a player that doesn't have access to things the site has? BTW he was never seen again after this post, shocker. You're another clown.

Ya I thought he might be clown too for a while but then he posted this in response to a question in the bot thread. I'd say he probably knows what he's talking about.

well wasn't HU removed from ACR after this post?

My only question is, do HU PLO bots frequently play (on the same site, on the same screen name) limit o8 at a very high level as well? Cause Kidopham does...

Isn’t limit O8 basically solved?

If so, yes.

Some things are hard to get good evidence of. I could probably come up some evidence, though not conclusive in the doubters mind's, but it would take a lot of effort and for what?

I'm curious in your opinion, what would strong evidence look like? Can you suggest something? I have about 5k hands sample with him.

These are indisputable facts:

1.) PLO solvers exist. Public and private versions.
2.) One can solve say 20bb HUPLO and get a decent solution that can beat humans. It's an abstraction, but still quite good.
3.) One can, from a computers POV, read and extract the game state information.
4.) One can match the game state info to their presolved solutions and instantly get the solver's "advice."

So... then the question is; is anyone doing this? With certainty, yes.

What does it look like when someone is? Well humans don't play like computers. At NL it's easier to replicate a computer's strat (though still ****ing hard) than PLO because PLO is much bigger and even more complicated.
The best players in the world and ones who study solvers are generally going to be good at recognizing if/when someone is using a solver advisor. So if you just want to brush off all the elite players who have posted itt and say "no evidence" then that's fine but imo silly. It's not like we have any help from WPN, or can go drug test him or something.


March 2018:



I wish I could elaborate but I've been told by very high level o8 players that they've seen him do stuff that they've not seen any other "humans" do. In 2017

Have you looked at that entire thread? The most recent 3 pages are almost entirely my investigation into the WPN botring. I gave up at this point because I realized my energy is better allocated on getting better at poker instead of a futile crusade to clean up the WPN games. The bot ring on WPN is never leaving and you can take that to the bank.

Yea, OP got the games removed with no evidence that kido was a bot. When there is mountains of evidence that there is actual bots that play heads up when gamestarting at every stake from plo10-plo2000. There is over 75 bots currently and formely active at PLO cash that I have identified, all with the same ridiculous stats. WPN removed the one format where a player could be assured he was not playing a bot (the bots did not sit on heads up tables or cap tables).

No offense but are you sure you are qualified to call yourself "elite"? I've seen your results on WPN and they are, like the OP, let's say less than stellar. Even if you were "elite", this is just a classic example of the appeal to authority fallacy. Just because you can't beat a player heads up does not constitute proof that they are using a real time postflop solver.

Wait, people are still going with the idea that WPN removed an entire game format in <24 hours based on one person's post?

Um, OK.

This made me laugh.. acutally both scenarios are kinda sad

I don't understand why you are so convinced that this one person had nothing to do with the removal.

Firstly, the site you're referencing has 21k hands of 6m and 11k of HU for me since 1/1/2018, yet I've played 118k of 6m and 67k of HU. The results are off significantly. Happy to make a bet with you on this if you'd like. But I don't care what category you put me in, I judge this based on who and how many give action.

It's an appeal to authority in the sense some people know more about it than others, especially when we can't get concrete proof. If me and a random poker player played against several opponents, some of which were using a live advisor, I would obviously be able to guess which were with higher accuracy because, like other HS players itt, have experience playing against top humans and also studying solvers.

You ignored my questions about how we could prove it. And you don't seem to disagree with the concept of a solver-advisor existing?

I actually never said I was convinced of that.

But...

1) WPN has been telling people for years that they would add mucked hands to hand histories. Still not done, AFAIK.

2) WPN had advertised with us for many years. Last year, in response to a number of player concerns, Mason reached out to them with some questions he was wanting to get some responses to before continuing with their advertising. No response.

3) One person starts a thread about a single player they believe is a bot. In less than 24 hours, WPN pulls the entire game format, likely costing them money in the short term at least.

One of these things is not like the other. And I'm sure people could come up with many more examples similar to 1) and 2). And not just for WPN - many sites are taken to task on our forums for being slow to respond to player concerns.

If the OP managing to single-handedly make WPN remove a game format in <24 hours makes sense to you, I'm not sure what else to say.

There's not one single entity controlling all "bots." Kido was not a part of the bot ring you've referred to. If you're a reg in those games where you believe bots run I would obviously put a lot of stock in your opinion and doubt you're wrong. Kido was a real person that, imo, had a real time solver-advisor.


WPN removed high stakes hyper HUSNG several months before this. I suspect they've been debating removing HU cash and this was the straw that broke the camel's back. Or a pure coincidence, no one knows. But it's not uncommon at all for site's to not offer HU tables. Rec players tend to lose their deposits quite quickly at HU and not generate as much rake.

Definitely a possibility. May have sped up the decision, or pushed them to make one that they were stalling on/undecided about.

Even more likely IMO, but I can understand people who think this is less likely than the scenario above.

And I think the fact that they've said nothing about it makes it even more likely that this was just an issue of timing. Given the beating they had been taking on botting, if they really did this purely because of this thread, I think they'd be all over making an announcement about this major action they were taking in response to a serious problem because they care about their players and the integrity of the game, etc., etc.

Exactly.