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Old 12-04-2017, 03:59 PM   #101
Pinkmann
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Re: Anyone in age 40+ (or late 30's) grinding for living?

obv its better to be a poker player at any stage or situation. the option is always there to be able to earn money in a better way that most poor people jobs. i would imagine a vast majority of not rich working non poker players would love to have the ability to simply win at poker for some side money(something 2p2 forgets is a unique and difficult ability)
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Old 12-04-2017, 04:19 PM   #102
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Re: Anyone in age 40+ (or late 30's) grinding for living?

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I wonder the same. I'm 35, have a college degree, full-time job, and all of the bells and whistles that come with. Grind in my free time. I hate the 9-5 and just cant see myself in this desk job forever. Actually looking to move into playing full-time around Labor Day 2018.

The way I look at it, everything is a waste of time if you're not doing something that you love and I'd hate to look back and have regret that I never gave it a shot. I can always get back to my current position with some company.
Was in same boat, I'm 42 and recently just left a full time well paying job to just play poker.

I understood everything I was giving up such as benefits but being the field twenty years I knew that and I'm sure you do to so there is no need for the reminders of that that we see in this thread.

I play many different games and in different casinos so that helps keep it fresh for me. I also like playing live because I like to be socialable. It's still early but I've had none of the ole "you'll hate it when you go pro" thing going on.
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Old 12-04-2017, 04:19 PM   #103
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Re: Anyone in age 40+ (or late 30's) grinding for living?

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wahhhh, wahhhhh, guys! Money isnt raining from the sky anymore from this card game and now i have to put in like 1/150th of the effort of an actual professional in most other fields. If you are passionate and doing well on stars 50-100z+ invest in some coaching, lower the table count and do it on the side while maintaining a job unti you feel confident the risk is worth it. Most important : Quality>quantity. Always. Poker is an incredibly complex game that humans will never be able to come close to achieving in game to likely even 2-3%. Furthermore, even if there was a super genius human who could play "perfectly" since its solved, they would not make nearly as much money as someone who is a master of exploitation, psychology/knowing how ppl think/balanced ranges when needed in as many spots as possible using simplification/use gto program like pio but get coaching so you dont waste infinite time. The "perfect gto" decision is making the assumption that your opponent is also playing perfectly, and this is not the case exactly 100% of the time without cheating. GTO is a virus of the brain of poker players. Im not saying GTO programs can be helpful for developing balanced ranges in as many spots as possible etc but my god it has gotten out of control with people trying to play "perfectly" all the time instead of simplifying when you cant even maintain 1% accuracy of real perfect lines ea hand and even if you could it wouldn't be ideal. You're an ape with consciousness - Deal with it. Even I have had the GTO virus on and off throughout my career because so many smart people were saying this is the only way to go, heck and I know this is crazy, but....our worst ever reported case of it is from the genius mind of Ben Sulsky aka sauce123 aka 2p2 god. I heard he named his first son assumption. #bangbang (to those who get da joke) Crazy stuff. It sounds so appealing. Unexploitable poker, that HAS to be the direction we have to go in to be the best! Except for everything I just said above proves you're all infected. *drops mic*

Make sure to simplify much of the information so that it can be practical to maintain in game on a consistent basis under many emotional conditions. Use and master all the latest huds/tools, get coaching in general on anything you don't understand if you can afford it, underused tool.

If you started poker out of high school as I did and even if you didn't I think you can benefit from my recommendations. Here is what i'd tell my 18 year old self (currently turning 29 dec 19th), it is absolutely crucial that you learn to manage your time effectively whatever means possible. Buy whiteboard and write down your daily goals and monthly goals. Never make money goals. Keep family close unless they are toxic, work on interacting with them adult to adult. Do something creative like youtube/writing/music/podcast etc. Minimize porn alone. Do not waste too much of your most precious asset, life in your prime. Stay healthy and fit at all costs. Invest. Keep "screen time" to an absolute minimum unless doing it for life improving reasons. Learn to network and execute. Travel, maybe try a poker house.(I have done multiple, all great times) Keep up with hygiene/cleanliness/shaving etc. Avoid the daily use of any illicit drug, except in rare cases weed nightly. Dress well. Generally do not get into a long term relationship if you're still in full on poker mode and have other socia/fitness/self esteem issues to work on. Always be learning new things, and chase what you're passionate about as long as it builds you a better tomorrow, remember to be objective about this and have evidence/objective peer support. Be as open minded as possible. Learn your authentic self and work on being authentic all of the time, unapologetically, within reason.

Force yourself to socialize. An easy way to start out if you're a young online grinder with live nearby, even though it'll be boring you can practice socializing and get paid like 60$/hr or something at 2/5. Seems good. Quit the video games. If not, perhaps volunteering. MEDITATE, should have put that first, most important habit in my opionion, by a lot. Find a way to remind yourself to do it to start at least 5 minutes a day everyday. Consistency is key. Learn from these next people : Eckhart Tolle(books.author) Russel Brand(youtube channel) and best for last Leo Gura from youtube : actualized.org(has immense amount of A+ content and got 3 months 1 on 1 coaching from him which was a great experience, he also sells an excellent course called "Life Purpose Course" and is only about 600-700$ and could change your life. Another good social activity is getting into a type of martial arts, im going to be joining jiu jujitsu after hearing so many good things about it soon. Learn to read (ideally non fiction learning about passion, fiction ok too) as there is so much amazing information just sitting there waiting for you to read that would improve your life, just need to look. Sam Harris, Jordan Peterson, Ben Shapiro, also all great guys to learn from.

Also guys look, think I have explained my points, a little off topic but think it still relates somewhat. As for me luckily I still have a lot of passion for the game, likely partly due to the fact that $ was never a big motivator, just loved the game, and was suited to my strengths.

PS: Literally billions of people have it INFINITELY worse than likely everyone here, life's unfair currently, we must accept that fact in order to be happy. I know many of you roll your eyes at these kind of statements, but I think its important/helpful to remember and be grateful. Accept everything in your life right now completely no matter how much of a victim you believe yourself to be, then continue to make the next best decision you can. You can be almost as happy while working on your goal as you are when you have achieved it. Learn to love every moment and connect with nature. You are luckier than you could ever imagine and you will learn to enjoy the journey should you start trying to improve everyday, it will just be brutally hard at first. Hope my post was useful for anyone. Feel free to send me a message if you wanna chat or anything. (likely no strat talk unless you play stars 200z+)
Best.Thank you much for this post adam.

Last edited by MartinK1979; 12-04-2017 at 04:27 PM.
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Old 12-04-2017, 07:52 PM   #104
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Re: Anyone in age 40+ (or late 30's) grinding for living?

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If being wealthy at retirement isn't an option, is it better to be a non-wealthy poker player or a non-wealthy non-poker player, assuming you will make close to the same money with either path?
Not a fair question for me since I will answer with something that may appear snarky, but is in fact my honest reply.

It doesn't matter your profession, start saving 10% today.

I think when I +1 Mike Haven, his point was posted as an aside to the main topic...but very apropos. If you are playing poker professionally, you should "pay yourself first" so that you will not be 65 and trying to make a go of it on Social Security alone.

I suppose the counter to that would be that poker doesn't have a retirement age...so one could play and earn up to the last few months. But...I like the idea of retirement
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Old 12-04-2017, 08:47 PM   #105
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Re: Anyone in age 40+ (or late 30's) grinding for living?

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obv its better to be a poker player at any stage or situation. the option is always there to be able to earn money in a better way that most poor people jobs. i would imagine a vast majority of not rich working non poker players would love to have the ability to simply win at poker for some side money(something 2p2 forgets is a unique and difficult ability)
This is so incredibly myopic, and exactly what you'd expect a loser (at life) grinder to say.

You even hint at why it's so incredibly wrong: poker is such a unique and difficult ability, anyone who can succeed at it could likely be more successful at something else (e.g., a "real" career).

Most "real jobs" are easier and less stressful than playing poker professionally. They also usually come with benefits and raises each year, even if you don't significantly improve your skills.

You have to either A) Have a significantly higher expectation at poker than the real job (I'm talking 2x-3x+); or B) Value the work schedule freedom over all else; for full-time poker to be a good idea, IMHO. Even if you're in Camp B, there are other ways to make money besides 9-5's.
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Old 12-04-2017, 08:54 PM   #106
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Re: Anyone in age 40+ (or late 30's) grinding for living?

Bang bang
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Old 12-04-2017, 09:31 PM   #107
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Re: Anyone in age 40+ (or late 30's) grinding for living?

36 and this is me and I still love it after 11 years. All of the things that scare other people away, just don't seem that important to me. Freedom is priceless.
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Old 12-04-2017, 09:33 PM   #108
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Re: Anyone in age 40+ (or late 30's) grinding for living?

I find a "real job" more stressful than poker. If I fail at poker, I'm the only one who gets punished. If I fail at a "real job", usually that means that other people depend on me and I have failed them. I've chosen not to have a family because I would be a suicidal wreck who would be tempted to kill myself over every mistake I make as a parent.

I'm at least honest with myself that I play a significant amount of poker because I am a screwed-up individual who has made some mistakes that closed off a lot of opportunities. Poker as a profession should be a last resort, or close to it. I think some of you don't appreciate that there are other opportunities out there and some of you don't understand that some people may exhaust those opportunities.

For now, I am happy grinding away with some nitty, egoless poker where I am not interested in trying to enforce my will on the table. I know I am not going to be happy forever because I hate a lot of the people I spend time with and sometimes wish I could just bring a gun in and shoot half the table. (This is why I am unsuited to exist in an office environment. After a few years, I want to destroy everyone.) I don't have a lot of want or material desires, so I live frugally, saving money so I can just leave when I can't take it anymore.
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Old 12-04-2017, 10:38 PM   #109
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Re: Anyone in age 40+ (or late 30's) grinding for living?

^ now those are good posts and valuable perspectives.
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Old 12-04-2017, 10:47 PM   #110
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Re: Anyone in age 40+ (or late 30's) grinding for living?

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^ now those are good posts and valuable perspectives.
You come across as very arrogant. Maybe poker didn't do you any favours but you are making a tone of assumptions and letting your own resentments cloud your judgement. There are a decent amount of people who have done well enough from poker to give them some financial security without letting other aspects of their life deteriorate.
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Old 12-04-2017, 11:12 PM   #111
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Re: Anyone in age 40+ (or late 30's) grinding for living?

Great thread.

I played professionally from 18-21(online), graduated college and got a job making $65k/yr, then went back to poker full time at 24 (live). I put in 5 more years and stopped playing full time for good.

No doubt about it I made more money in those 5 years than I would have working. It enabled me to go back to school and get a masters degree at no rush, without having to worry about finances too much- with the goal of going back to work after finishing up school.

With that being said poker became a real chore after awhile. Putting in 30-40 hours a week in a cardroom isnít for everyone. I got no fulfillment whatsoever from playing and I generally didnít like most of the regs. There is no way I could have done it into my 40s.
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Old 12-04-2017, 11:52 PM   #112
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Re: Anyone in age 40+ (or late 30's) grinding for living?

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You come across as very arrogant. Maybe poker didn't do you any favours but you are making a tone of assumptions and letting your own resentments cloud your judgement. There are a decent amount of people who have done well enough from poker to give them some financial security without letting other aspects of their life deteriorate.
Sorry if I came across that way.

I certainly respect the folks you speak of, and I suspect that they wouldn't need to ask anyone whether they're making the right choice (not that the OP is unreasonable at all).

I just feel strongly that what the OP proposes is a bad idea, and perspectives like the one I hated on are simply, not helpful. No one successful in any field talks/thinks like that.
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Old 12-05-2017, 06:12 AM   #113
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Re: Anyone in age 40+ (or late 30's) grinding for living?

You mad at me for some reason?

I'm just arguing that your average joe and even your average middle class white collar guy would love to have the ability to earn an extra small hourly playing on the side since someone asked if its better to be a poker player or not. Not arguing at all that pro poker is the answer for most people.
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Old 12-05-2017, 06:17 AM   #114
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Re: Anyone in age 40+ (or late 30's) grinding for living?

You didnít come across as arrogant at all.

jimbo just standardly accuses people who donít agree with him on this subject of ďsucking at pokerĒ Because why else would anyone point out the dark side/ dangers of a professional poker career. They must be jealous



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Old 12-05-2017, 08:31 AM   #115
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Re: Anyone in age 40+ (or late 30's) grinding for living?

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Where’s your point, since your entire post is complete horse ****
My point is stereotyping people by how they spend their time, whether it is playing poker, running companies (or countries) or emptying trashcans is the pastime of anally retentive judgemental a/holes.

And thanks for helping me make it by the way
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Old 12-05-2017, 12:00 PM   #116
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Re: Anyone in age 40+ (or late 30's) grinding for living?

I'm 31 1/2, two kids, married, so I may fit the profile for "late 30's, early 40's"

I have had fair/moderate success as a pro, I have had 12 to 13 years of consistent winnings(2 years were not by a lot but my game improved a lot). Overall, I have done alright and HODLed some. With that said, it can skew my current perception, as in my poker career may not be as bright as it seems in the present because past performance has me perhaps, more comfortable than I should be(person dependent).

Anyway, I think poker would easily go best with a more primary job or income stream. It is all user dependent but in short, I think challenging yourself in another career path and playing poker on the side, when you want to, is a better choice, especially if you intend to get married and have a family.We'll see if that ever happens though .

If I retained my poker knowledge as is, information of the games as is, and outlook of the games as is, but you take away all of my past poker winnings, I would probably rank poker behind a long list of other jobs going forward. It's so hard to say though because I can only speak on my behalf, in which case, if I am advising against it as a seasoned vet (undefeated like a veteran army) it probably ranks about where I said, above.

Of all my years in poker, I would have to say this year is the year I put in the least amount of hours, or so it feels.

Perhaps the craziest thing about poker, when compared to many other games(I guess more so physical games) is that at least I would argue, you can get better at it by simply thinking about it, wherever you are if you are a critical thinker. You may not always have Flopzilla available to spit out answers but I believe by thinking critically about hands, you should be able to formulate some EV answers. Yes, perhaps in basketball you can visualize making shots out of game to help you make them in the game(visualization), I believe in it, even if it's only a small EV gain, it's all about EV gains. I wanted to some this up though by thinking more along the theme line of, "poker should be played in smaller quantities(when you really feel like it) and in environment's that get you excited."

Firing up 16 tables of $20 SNG's for 50 hours for four weeks no longer seems as attractive as playing a $2k main one time a month, to me, perhaps. There has to be a sense of urgency and desire to want to excel, in short. that's hard to hold on to when you play a game day in and day out(and it's pry hard to hold on to in your average 9 to 5) We're a slave to the dollar, a piece of paper, or perhaps a bitcoin, a computer algorithm

Last edited by p2 dog, p2; 12-05-2017 at 12:27 PM.
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Old 12-05-2017, 01:04 PM   #117
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Re: Anyone in age 40+ (or late 30's) grinding for living?

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This is so incredibly myopic, and exactly what you'd expect a loser (at life) grinder to say.

You even hint at why it's so incredibly wrong: poker is such a unique and difficult ability, anyone who can succeed at it could likely be more successful at something else (e.g., a "real" career).

Most "real jobs" are easier and less stressful than playing poker professionally. They also usually come with benefits and raises each year, even if you don't significantly improve your skills.

You have to either A) Have a significantly higher expectation at poker than the real job (I'm talking 2x-3x+); or B) Value the work schedule freedom over all else; for full-time poker to be a good idea, IMHO. Even if you're in Camp B, there are other ways to make money besides 9-5's.
I'm camp b, list examples please.
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Old 12-05-2017, 03:10 PM   #118
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Re: Anyone in age 40+ (or late 30's) grinding for living?

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But surely you can see the hypocrisy in your arguments when you have over 4k post over the last 12 years in a poker forum when presumably you have been playing poker with the intention of hopefully winning money from other players who may be struggling with the issues you have described. Not everyone has had the experiences you have had just like not everyone who drinks alcohol develops a dependency.
Not sure you understand what the word hypocrisy means. In 2005 my advice would obviously have been different.

Are you suggesting in your analogy that my experiences and interpretation of the opportunities in poker is pessimistic? I've done pretty well, i can still make a decent hourly - i just don't think it's worth the work, and that's the basic sentiment of everyone i've ever known whose had success at poker. The people who think it would be fun are in almost all cases people who play at their own leisure for very limited volume.

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You mad at me for some reason?

I'm just arguing that your average joe and even your average middle class white collar guy would love to have the ability to earn an extra small hourly playing on the side since someone asked if its better to be a poker player or not. Not arguing at all that pro poker is the answer for most people.
They'd love to do it as long as it's fun and didn't require a significant invstment of time and effort to get there.

The ceiling for hourlies for these types of guys though is probably something to the tune of $10/h at a local $5/5nl game, and it would take a lot of work to get there. You'd get a much better return at increasing your skills/knowledge in areas related to your work.
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Old 12-05-2017, 06:31 PM   #119
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Re: Anyone in age 40+ (or late 30's) grinding for living?

Early 40s, married, 6 children, hopefully 7 (ucwidt?) and I ain't dead yet. Can you really blame my wife? I have thought about leaving "the grind" 9-5 and "going pro," but it just doesn't make sense. We make over 100k each, well over 250 together. Children's education is set, ~600k+ net assets. What, me worry?

The math just doesn't work for me/us. $50/hr is just not worth the poker time+ investment. It's not a particularly difficult calculation: 20BB/hr crushing 1/2 online and/or 5/10 live and dealing with the dregs of society along the way in a sub-zero sum game where somebody suffers at the winners' expense.

It's a great servant, but a terrible master.

I just don't have the patience to grind out anything in cash, but I can and will toss in a few hundred+ for a year+ tournament score, plus a little "practice" along the way.

I am pretty sure the game was dead when I realized most of the above because I am exactly the type that can and will donate along the way.
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Old 12-05-2017, 09:38 PM   #120
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Re: Anyone in age 40+ (or late 30's) grinding for living?

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Originally Posted by IMDABES View Post
"You have to either A) Have a significantly higher expectation at poker than the real job (I'm talking 2x-3x+); or B) Value the work schedule freedom over all else; for full-time poker to be a good idea, IMHO. Even if you're in Camp B, there are other ways to make money besides 9-5's."

I'm camp b, list examples please.
A lot of jobs aren't 9-5s. If you have a license or some kind of expertise that people or businesses value, you can work as an independent contractor and choose when you want to work.

The more specialized your skills the more flexibility you'll have generally.
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Old 12-05-2017, 10:17 PM   #121
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Re: Anyone in age 40+ (or late 30's) grinding for living?

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Originally Posted by '-'_@_ View Post
Early 40s, married, 6 children, hopefully 7 (ucwidt?) and I ain't dead yet. Can you really blame my wife? I have thought about leaving "the grind" 9-5 and "going pro," but it just doesn't make sense. We make over 100k each, well over 250 together. Children's education is set, ~600k+ net assets. What, me worry?

The math just doesn't work for me/us. $50/hr is just not worth the poker time+ investment. It's not a particularly difficult calculation: 20BB/hr crushing 1/2 online and/or 5/10 live and dealing with the dregs of society along the way in a sub-zero sum game where somebody suffers at the winners' expense.

It's a great servant, but a terrible master.

I just don't have the patience to grind out anything in cash, but I can and will toss in a few hundred+ for a year+ tournament score, plus a little "practice" along the way.

I am pretty sure the game was dead when I realized most of the above because I am exactly the type that can and will donate along the way.
What kind of side action would it take for you to bet on yourself at 20bb an hour playing a typical 5/10 line-up? Pretty sure more than enough fools will line up and make you a multi-millionaire, surely that math works, no?

Lol.
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Old 12-05-2017, 10:28 PM   #122
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Re: Anyone in age 40+ (or late 30's) grinding for living?

Seems like it was implied that he meant 20bbs/hour at 1/2 online or the equivalent hourly at 5/10 which would be 4bb/hour.
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Old 12-05-2017, 10:48 PM   #123
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Re: Anyone in age 40+ (or late 30's) grinding for living?

Pretty sure he can get plenty of action in and around those too.
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Old 12-05-2017, 11:10 PM   #124
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Re: Anyone in age 40+ (or late 30's) grinding for living?

He was suggesting that it wasn't worth investing his time to reach that plateau, not that he's already there. Probably a bit on the high end but the biggest impediment to reaching that hourly is that very few cities have a healthy supply of games that run at those stakes. In vegas or LA it's not completely unrealistic.
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Old 12-06-2017, 01:05 AM   #125
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Re: Anyone in age 40+ (or late 30's) grinding for living?

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You mad at me for some reason?

I'm just arguing that your average joe and even your average middle class white collar guy would love to have the ability to earn an extra small hourly playing on the side since someone asked if its better to be a poker player or not. Not arguing at all that pro poker is the answer for most people.
I misunderstand your point so I was a little mad.

Abbaddabba's bigger point is the perspective that I share, and was trying to hint at.

As you can probably guess, I'm a 9-5 square, and yeah, at one point I had "the dream" (see my join date). But "the dream" definitely wasn't grinding out $60-90k as an end goal. Those are entry level tech salaries these days. I consider myself lucky that I didn't hit a lucky patch of variance back in the day, or I wouldn't have "lucked into" an actual career.
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