Anyone in age 40+ (or late 30's) grinding for living?
12-31-2018
, 03:21 PM
Quote:
Great thread, great variety of experiences/opinions. I'm only 29 but I played pro full-time from 2008 to 2013, or 19 to 24. At the time my motivations were money and freedom, and to 19 year old me I had a ton of both. Looking back the freedom was the biggest positive. I was able to travel/live in 15+ different countries and have some pretty amazing life experiences very few people my age (even now) have ever had. As for money though, I work now full-time as a data scientist. The money from poker was good but people underestimate how much money you can make in other jobs if you're the type of person who can succeed at poker. I just finished my 4th full year at my 9-to-5 and including retirement contributions+benefits I'm going to clear 150k. If I had skipped the poker and finished school+got a job right out of school I'd almost definitely be in the 200-250k range. This is right around where other people I went to high school with are that went into a similar field. Now I'm not saying that's easy to do, but I think most people good enough to come close to 6 figures in poker in 2018 could do it.
In addition, the work is far less stressful. Don't get me wrong, stress and variance still exists (lol at a real job having no variance), but it's naturally a lot lower with less built in randomness and working for someone else has the benefit of them eating some of the remaining variance. And people talk about all the freedom poker gives you, but for everyone in this thread who used their poker winnings to travel and go on trips there are another 100 poker pros who didn't leave their hometown or who "traveled" but never left the casino of whatever city the poker tournament they went to was. And you can also travel with a 9-to-5. I now get 25 vacation days per year (in addition to the company-wide 10 holidays) and can work remotely as long as it's not a regular occurrence. I generally do 1-2 international trips per year, which isn't as much as I traveled playing poker but I also don't have to "work" during my trips at all.
Anyway there's obviously downsides to a 9-to-5 as well. In poker I loved nothing better than someone being an arrogant idiot and being like "well now I get to take your money". In a corporate environment, oftentimes that arrogant idiot is a VP making millions per year who you need to impress in order for your career to advance, and oftentimes that VP will then use your work in order to advance their own career. And I certainly don't mean to downplay the positives of poker. I made so many friends and so many memories that will last a lifetime. I learned things about myself and life that I never would have being coddled in college. I'm so glad I made the choice I did to drop out and play poker, and similarly glad I was able to finish my degree and get a real job afterwards. I saw my share of people who crashed and burned and resorted to scamming and/or coaching (but I repeat myself
) and/or moving back in with their parents in their 30s when the money ran out. And everyone talking about the downsides of poker have been spot-on. It's a lonely game, variance is a *****, and although you may still enjoy it, definitely don't count on your current passion continuing a few years after you've been doing it full-time. You will run worse than you ever imagined you could, you will begin to question whether you're even a winning player anymore, you will begin to dread playing, and you will begin to play worse as a result of this, which leads to it being even more likely that the downswing continues.
Also finally if you have a 9-to-5 and think of yourself as "working for someone else", you're doing it wrong. Just as in poker you are working for yourself, and you are selling your services to other people. Improving your skills equates to you either getting a raise at your current job or being able to find another job that pays more, because you have something they value. Depending on career you could look into being a contractor/freelancer as well. Look at yourself as a 1-person business. If you're working a 9-to-5, that's only because the most profitable way to sell your services is to agree to provide 40 hours/week of your labor in exchange for a paycheck. Especially as you get better at your craft, you'll find more and more "customers" who are willing to be more flexible whether it's alternative work location/hours, fewer hours per week, more freedom to choose your own projects, etc.
In addition, the work is far less stressful. Don't get me wrong, stress and variance still exists (lol at a real job having no variance), but it's naturally a lot lower with less built in randomness and working for someone else has the benefit of them eating some of the remaining variance. And people talk about all the freedom poker gives you, but for everyone in this thread who used their poker winnings to travel and go on trips there are another 100 poker pros who didn't leave their hometown or who "traveled" but never left the casino of whatever city the poker tournament they went to was. And you can also travel with a 9-to-5. I now get 25 vacation days per year (in addition to the company-wide 10 holidays) and can work remotely as long as it's not a regular occurrence. I generally do 1-2 international trips per year, which isn't as much as I traveled playing poker but I also don't have to "work" during my trips at all.
Anyway there's obviously downsides to a 9-to-5 as well. In poker I loved nothing better than someone being an arrogant idiot and being like "well now I get to take your money". In a corporate environment, oftentimes that arrogant idiot is a VP making millions per year who you need to impress in order for your career to advance, and oftentimes that VP will then use your work in order to advance their own career. And I certainly don't mean to downplay the positives of poker. I made so many friends and so many memories that will last a lifetime. I learned things about myself and life that I never would have being coddled in college. I'm so glad I made the choice I did to drop out and play poker, and similarly glad I was able to finish my degree and get a real job afterwards. I saw my share of people who crashed and burned and resorted to scamming and/or coaching (but I repeat myself
) and/or moving back in with their parents in their 30s when the money ran out. And everyone talking about the downsides of poker have been spot-on. It's a lonely game, variance is a *****, and although you may still enjoy it, definitely don't count on your current passion continuing a few years after you've been doing it full-time. You will run worse than you ever imagined you could, you will begin to question whether you're even a winning player anymore, you will begin to dread playing, and you will begin to play worse as a result of this, which leads to it being even more likely that the downswing continues.Also finally if you have a 9-to-5 and think of yourself as "working for someone else", you're doing it wrong. Just as in poker you are working for yourself, and you are selling your services to other people. Improving your skills equates to you either getting a raise at your current job or being able to find another job that pays more, because you have something they value. Depending on career you could look into being a contractor/freelancer as well. Look at yourself as a 1-person business. If you're working a 9-to-5, that's only because the most profitable way to sell your services is to agree to provide 40 hours/week of your labor in exchange for a paycheck. Especially as you get better at your craft, you'll find more and more "customers" who are willing to be more flexible whether it's alternative work location/hours, fewer hours per week, more freedom to choose your own projects, etc.
01-02-2019
, 09:12 PM
01-02-2019
, 09:53 PM
Quote:
It's really hard to play in your 30s/40s and beyond for a lot of reasons.
+ Once you hit 30/40, you'll probably either have a family (wife and/or kids) or want one.
+ Once you hit 30/40, hanging out all day/night in a casino isn't fun anymore (especially if you've already spent 5-10 years doing so). Also, hanging out with 20-somethings starts to suck, because get off my lawn.
+ Fact: poker is psychologically engaging to beginners because it's all new. But once you've hit every had, played every type of opponent, had all the epic wins/losses/comebacks, etc., banged all the strippers/waitresses, etc it's just not the mind-f**k it once was
+ Also Fact: if you play recreationally now and are winning, never forget you're just picking the best hours of the week. You play Fridays 7pm and later - great game! But what happens on Wed morning when you still need money? Not many fish around then.
+ You can't really grow your income in poker. Let's say on the career path, you can expect $50k's in your 20s, $100k's in your 30s and $150k's plus in your 40's and beyond. $50k can be attained in poker, plus you don't have FICA and taxes. So poker for 20's somethings is great! But you'll need a 2x win rate in your 30s and 3x in your 40s to sustain what you would have had with your 9-5. That's pretty hard, especially if you suck at poker and have other commitments (like if you settled down with that stripper, had a kid or 2 and need to pay bills while spending time with them).
+ Once you hit 30/40, you'll probably either have a family (wife and/or kids) or want one.
+ Once you hit 30/40, hanging out all day/night in a casino isn't fun anymore (especially if you've already spent 5-10 years doing so). Also, hanging out with 20-somethings starts to suck, because get off my lawn.
+ Fact: poker is psychologically engaging to beginners because it's all new. But once you've hit every had, played every type of opponent, had all the epic wins/losses/comebacks, etc., banged all the strippers/waitresses, etc it's just not the mind-f**k it once was
+ Also Fact: if you play recreationally now and are winning, never forget you're just picking the best hours of the week. You play Fridays 7pm and later - great game! But what happens on Wed morning when you still need money? Not many fish around then.
+ You can't really grow your income in poker. Let's say on the career path, you can expect $50k's in your 20s, $100k's in your 30s and $150k's plus in your 40's and beyond. $50k can be attained in poker, plus you don't have FICA and taxes. So poker for 20's somethings is great! But you'll need a 2x win rate in your 30s and 3x in your 40s to sustain what you would have had with your 9-5. That's pretty hard, especially if you suck at poker and have other commitments (like if you settled down with that stripper, had a kid or 2 and need to pay bills while spending time with them).
Im 32 and have been playing poker in casinos since 18 and dealing table games since 19, and have spent a good portion of my other time being in a casino as well. Youre right in that no longer being alluring.
Ive always been fairly lazy and thought playing poker was ideal for me. I took a couple weak ass stabs and never put in the effort, and was always losing whatever money I had playing table games or video poker.
Now Ive quit gambling outside of poker, didnt wager a non poker dollar in 2018. Due to my work schedule and home life, I play exclusively on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday afternoons. I dont think Ive played a Friday or Saturday night in two years. Still not putting in big hours, but showing that side income can be made outside of those "fishy" hours.
January 1st 2017 through present. Probably 85-90% of hours are 1/3 with some 3/5 in there.
01-03-2019
, 06:58 PM
Im an oldschool poker pro in my early 30s, its never been easier to learn to play if you are motivated but poker has a dubious long term future outside of some live cardrooms. I think it makes sense to go pro in your 30s if some or all of this is true:
-You live in a country where Xk$/month is a huge salary
-You strongly dislike authority
-You have a backup plan that wouldn't depress you (like becoming a teacher or some savings)
-You have a good feel of where you will play an vs who and are confident you could one of the better regs
eeking out a small winrate is very stressful, especially if you are just starting out or have no safety net. The difference between being a 3bb and 15bb/100 winner in terms of the psychological distribution of results like length and severity of downswings is usually underappreciated. If you are unsure of yourself, try to play a game you crush even if its small, the consistency of winnings will help ease the burden. I think it is worth the lower take home pay. (not to mention that people generally overrate their abilities and usually move up too much)
In general I think poker, or a similar sphere where people compete and battle wits on a relatively even playing field for money will always exist as a human outlet. So if you feel better at games or more passionate or harder working or whatever and can see yourself having some success in the field I wouldn't blanketly advise against it. Passion will help the most because it will ease the level of grit you need to get past the tough times.
Hope this helps
-You live in a country where Xk$/month is a huge salary
-You strongly dislike authority
-You have a backup plan that wouldn't depress you (like becoming a teacher or some savings)
-You have a good feel of where you will play an vs who and are confident you could one of the better regs
eeking out a small winrate is very stressful, especially if you are just starting out or have no safety net. The difference between being a 3bb and 15bb/100 winner in terms of the psychological distribution of results like length and severity of downswings is usually underappreciated. If you are unsure of yourself, try to play a game you crush even if its small, the consistency of winnings will help ease the burden. I think it is worth the lower take home pay. (not to mention that people generally overrate their abilities and usually move up too much)
In general I think poker, or a similar sphere where people compete and battle wits on a relatively even playing field for money will always exist as a human outlet. So if you feel better at games or more passionate or harder working or whatever and can see yourself having some success in the field I wouldn't blanketly advise against it. Passion will help the most because it will ease the level of grit you need to get past the tough times.
Hope this helps