Uhhhh ...yeah? There’s literally thousands of “non-miserable” ways to do it :|

Well, I don´t know if I´m right here but I am indeed 40+, started about a year ago with 20 € at the lowest stakes, making my way up to the mid-stakes. But I´m not planing to quit my work.

That probably depends on your definition of "miserable".

Among the people I hung out with in business school (MBA/MSc., considered "elite"), I doubt anyone of them who went the "solid" career path makes less than 6-figures now. I know some of them are happy or at least content with what they do and a couple others who went into consulting are about to make the jump from "senior" to "partner" or equivalent, meaning way less stress/hours and even more pay.

wahhhh, wahhhhh, guys! Money isnt raining from the sky anymore from this card game and now i have to put in like 1/150th of the effort of an actual professional in most other fields. If you are passionate and doing well on stars 50-100z+ invest in some coaching, lower the table count and do it on the side while maintaining a job unti you feel confident the risk is worth it. Most important : Quality>quantity. Always. Poker is an incredibly complex game that humans will never be able to come close to achieving in game to likely even 2-3%. Furthermore, even if there was a super genius human who could play "perfectly" since its solved, they would not make nearly as much money as someone who is a master of exploitation, psychology/knowing how ppl think/balanced ranges when needed in as many spots as possible using simplification/use gto program like pio but get coaching so you dont waste infinite time. The "perfect gto" decision is making the assumption that your opponent is also playing perfectly, and this is not the case exactly 100% of the time without cheating. GTO is a virus of the brain of poker players. Im not saying GTO programs can be helpful for developing balanced ranges in as many spots as possible etc but my god it has gotten out of control with people trying to play "perfectly" all the time instead of simplifying when you cant even maintain 1% accuracy of real perfect lines ea hand and even if you could it wouldn't be ideal. You're an ape with consciousness - Deal with it. Even I have had the GTO virus on and off throughout my career because so many smart people were saying this is the only way to go, heck and I know this is crazy, but....our worst ever reported case of it is from the genius mind of Ben Sulsky aka sauce123 aka 2p2 god. I heard he named his first son assumption. #bangbang (to those who get da joke) Crazy stuff. It sounds so appealing. Unexploitable poker, that HAS to be the direction we have to go in to be the best! Except for everything I just said above proves you're all infected. *drops mic*

Make sure to simplify much of the information so that it can be practical to maintain in game on a consistent basis under many emotional conditions. Use and master all the latest huds/tools, get coaching in general on anything you don't understand if you can afford it, underused tool.

If you started poker out of high school as I did and even if you didn't I think you can benefit from my recommendations. Here is what i'd tell my 18 year old self (currently turning 29 dec 19th), it is absolutely crucial that you learn to manage your time effectively whatever means possible. Buy whiteboard and write down your daily goals and monthly goals. Never make money goals. Keep family close unless they are toxic, work on interacting with them adult to adult. Do something creative like youtube/writing/music/podcast etc. Minimize porn alone. Do not waste too much of your most precious asset, life in your prime. Stay healthy and fit at all costs. Invest. Keep "screen time" to an absolute minimum unless doing it for life improving reasons. Learn to network and execute. Travel, maybe try a poker house.(I have done multiple, all great times) Keep up with hygiene/cleanliness/shaving etc. Avoid the daily use of any illicit drug, except in rare cases weed nightly. Dress well. Generally do not get into a long term relationship if you're still in full on poker mode and have other socia/fitness/self esteem issues to work on. Always be learning new things, and chase what you're passionate about as long as it builds you a better tomorrow, remember to be objective about this and have evidence/objective peer support. Be as open minded as possible. Learn your authentic self and work on being authentic all of the time, unapologetically, within reason.

Force yourself to socialize. An easy way to start out if you're a young online grinder with live nearby, even though it'll be boring you can practice socializing and get paid like 60$/hr or something at 2/5. Seems good. Quit the video games. If not, perhaps volunteering. MEDITATE, should have put that first, most important habit in my opionion, by a lot. Find a way to remind yourself to do it to start at least 5 minutes a day everyday. Consistency is key. Learn from these next people : Eckhart Tolle(books.author) Russel Brand(youtube channel) and best for last Leo Gura from youtube : actualized.org(has immense amount of A+ content and got 3 months 1 on 1 coaching from him which was a great experience, he also sells an excellent course called "Life Purpose Course" and is only about 600-700$ and could change your life. Another good social activity is getting into a type of martial arts, im going to be joining jiu jujitsu after hearing so many good things about it soon. Learn to read (ideally non fiction learning about passion, fiction ok too) as there is so much amazing information just sitting there waiting for you to read that would improve your life, just need to look. Sam Harris, Jordan Peterson, Ben Shapiro, also all great guys to learn from.

Also guys look, think I have explained my points, a little off topic but think it still relates somewhat. As for me luckily I still have a lot of passion for the game, likely partly due to the fact that $ was never a big motivator, just loved the game, and was suited to my strengths.

PS: Literally billions of people have it INFINITELY worse than likely everyone here, life's unfair currently, we must accept that fact in order to be happy. I know many of you roll your eyes at these kind of statements, but I think its important/helpful to remember and be grateful. Accept everything in your life right now completely no matter how much of a victim you believe yourself to be, then continue to make the next best decision you can. You can be almost as happy while working on your goal as you are when you have achieved it. Learn to love every moment and connect with nature. You are luckier than you could ever imagine and you will learn to enjoy the journey should you start trying to improve everyday, it will just be brutally hard at first. Hope my post was useful for anyone. Feel free to send me a message if you wanna chat or anything. (likely no strat talk unless you play stars 200z+)

Where were you when i was 18?!

Great post,from a great man i assume

Thank you man,it was uplifting to read your post

Very nice post and very nice thread guys. Been insightful to read and learn from everyone's experiences here. Giving this thread a different perspective, I'm 24 and recently gotten really serious with my poker career. I know the games have gotten a lot tougher than before and poker as a whole is on the decline but I'm still very happy with my decision to play full time. Like many other here, I have a passion for the game and it's not always about the money. The different scenarios that occur, the strategy and tactics, the fighting in your mind you make when trying to figure out the right decision, the beauty of the game. I play because I enjoy using the time I have to play and since I'm good enough to make money from it then that's absolutely great. On the long term side of things, I will not be playing for life since I have other roads I'd love to travel down through but as things are now for the short - mid term, I feel fulfilled. Ultimately it depends on what your goals are and how much weight you put towards on the money side of things. If you prioritize happiness, then do whatever makes you happy.

I'm curious what adam001's plans are in the next 5 years. How about 10 years?

I'll add to what "adam001" was saying.

I posted previously in this thread about how took a break from hiking the Appalachian Trail to play poker for a few weeks straight. On the trail I met people from all walks of life and all ages...

- Drunks
- Druggies
- Hippies
- 80 year olds
- Military vets
- Broke people
- Rich people
- Really rich people
- Retired people
- Dumb teens
- Well off 30 year olds

What I began to notice and found interesting is that the broke people generally happy and rarely sad. The rich people were the opposite ... generally more sad than happy. A lot of people ITT are talking about how some of their peers are more successful. First, that is your perspective. Second, wealth does not equal fulfillment. The big issue though... is your perspective. Why? Because it presupposes and asserts that your default state is unhappy, unsatisfied, unfulfilled. That is a mental issue ... not a poker issue. Stop working the problem from the outside (poker) - in (self), and starting working it from the inside-out.

Anything can be a grind when all you do is toss in a bunch of time and lackadaisical focus. A good hour of real focus and effort is worth 4 hours of half-ass. Autopiloting anything in life can be miserable. Things get a lot better when you find balance in a mixture of things, strive to learn new things, and grow by putting yourself in uncomfortable situations.

The problem isn't poker ... it's the 12-15 hours a day you're probably sitting playing half focused, watching TV or browsing the internet, and bored out of your mind. If you can't get out of that trap, then find a mentor, burn the boat and take the island (really commit), or chop your hand off and cast into the fire (kinda sorta bible reference).

If you work from the inside-out ... you might just find that you actually don't enjoy the game and you simply keep grinding because you've habitualized yourself into believing that there aren't other options. Nothing in life stays the same ... so it is possible you're mind/soul/body is telling you it is time to move on and you keep ignoring it... fighting it... and it's creating an inner conflict causing you to be miserable and unhappy.

Overall great post, but there's a huge difference between being 29 and 39.
Selection bias?

There's a high chance younger broke people are happier than younger rich people. In part because they usually have less commitments and don't work all day. But at age 60+, rich people have money and time to do what they want, like traveling the world or spoiling their grandkids, while poor people can't afford health care. Not sure which group is happier at that stage in life. My wife's grandma has to get up at 5AM 5-6 days a week to serve food samples in a grocery store for 40 hours/week at age 75 while my dad (who is roughly the same age) retired in his late 50s and makes >10x her monthly salary just from pension (funds) and collecting rent. That's something I never even thought about in my late 20s or early 30s. Being poor and old/sick is among the worst thing that can happen to you in the US.

Sure, in many cases it'll be easier to get an hourly of $50 in poker than in the professional world. That means nothing. An hour of grinding multiple tables is not comparable to an hour of work. Jobs that require specialized education/training and pay modest salaries are just not that demanding.

What does it even mean to be passionate about poker? Passionate about a repetitive card game? You'd have to either be very immature or borderline ******ed to be passionate about the game after even 1 year of grinding. Relative to jobs requiring a similar level of sacrifice and competency poker starts off a lot more fun than most, but over time will become one of the worst things imaginable and there're very few if any ways you can salvage your experience towards something new.

No selection bias at all. Actually it was a reality slap for me. As an upper middle class individual i had so many beliefs shattered during that time.

I never said it was the young people that were broke. The fast majority of the wealthy people were not happy with their lives and hated their jobs/former jobs. There is also the misconception that you need a crazy sum of money to be happy or fulfilled. I met a guy that had little to nothing that managed to get across Canada, book passage to Australia, ended up in Thailand, then Vietnam to teach English, and got married. I met countless people just doing their thing without chasing the mansion and five cars and they were absolutely loving life.

The difference is that the happy people figured out what it is they enjoy and fit money to it (inside-out). The ones that weren't usually chased dollars and tried buying excitement ... which many people confuse for happiness.

Just look at the world with open eyes. There are tons and tons of celebrities and rich people in the news that are absolutely miserable. The ones that aren't usually had a passion for something, got money for being good at the passion, and remained grounded. I think someone like Joe Rogan is perfect example of a rich person the got money by doing something they were passionate about and not inverting the idea by chasing dollars to buy excitement.

I've met many people living in Asia over the past 4 years that are like this. He's going to be happy now sure. When he gets his wife pregnant, is older with health problems, no insurance, no retirement, and is working as a 65 year old English teacher in Vietnam for 800-1200usd a month he wont be happy anymore. The guys who're happiest in Asia are the guys who're making a Western salary through a job and living here or are already wealthy from other things. The older expats who're near busto are always miserable AF. The ones retired with a nice pension are happy and fun to talk to in most but not all cases. Some people are just always miserable.

As far as seeing unhappy famous people on the news thats because happy people arent news. People want to hear gossip and negative things about famous people not positive stuff.

If you are late 30s-40 trying to get into poker for a living at least know you'll be playing live in the future. Online is going to keep getting worse and worse. Thinking otherwise is very foolish.

Personally - 39 years old, wife 2 kids, very small business owner. Started playing 5 years ago. 3 years ago I was playing $0.10 SNGs with a BR under $10. Run it up and now playing SNGs up to 100 euros when they run.

Would not give up job and play full time even though the hourly at poker is now overtaking my real world hourly. Best is to have a variety of interests, variety of income sources and variety of activities.

From the Darwinian point of view, the 2 friends above are the successes. If you have a different definition of success that's meaningful to you then that's cool, but remember that nobody other than your kids is going to care you were voted local "realtor of the year" or had a poker theorem named after your screenname or some such. Ultimately:

... unless you have kids.


People might not be flexible enough for Wednesday night but they should be flexible enough not to demand the whole weekend which is fine if you aren't full time.

All the above are reasons not to do it full time. Do a normal job during the weekdays, study poker during your commute. In addition play poker (or beg at a mall) when the fish are actually biting on weekends.

There aren't usually good games for that length of time so you don't need to do the extra dead time on Tuesday mornings passing money around with other regs and all losing to the rake. Just go out and get some variance free income during that time.

I get that you can't cut down on the study but
a) how much are our opponents really doing
b) if you love it the study time isn't work - if it is then don't do poker seriously.

Yeah the way the west is heading with tech addiction/attention grabbing addiction of various sorts, the worse our mental health issues will be. Going to be a lot of depressed people in the west in the coming decades, especially as artificial intelligence starts taking everyone's job. The key seems to be to stop playing this "game" and do what you enjoy to get by and otherwise live as natural and healthy as possible, disconnected completely from society, as in anything that happens you can instantly accept and not have it negatively effect you, not that you dont follow whats going on at all and monk mode.

Most of our suffering in such a physically safe world is because of the fictions we've created in our minds that harm us immensely psychologically consciously by companies looking to exploit you for max profit and improving every year, its a really hard addiction to break with all the entertainment etc out there. None of it is reality, and our human bodies have not caught up to this craziness yet and will be depressed in this environment most of the time and its only getting worse imo. Stop suffering, start meditating and connecting with nature, and disconnecting from the internet. My 2c.

In a simple way I currently view poker as a fun video game im good at that makes good money, and since I enjoy live, will continue to do so in future with decent job security with where im at skill wise after 12 years of stars msnl+. This allows the freedom I want to do the things I want to do. However, if you're not very careful you can develop habits that will cause depression often as a poker player id say.

Lol. Too good. The random pointless anger over slight word exaggeration+assumptions.

A Sunday mtt session and grinding some prime time hours cash+off the table work you end up putting in the same amount of hours(50+)working as my brother who makes a solid 6 figure number running his own construction business. As time goes on he works less hours, makes more money, and doesnt have to work as hard. Hes going to retire by 50(hes 37) and hes a very happy man.

The most important diff between having a regular job and being a poker player is the fact you spend your life doing a predatory job. Rather then doing something that produces positives in the world you spend your time learning how to exploit people for a living. My brother builds stuff which yeah it isnt like saving the world but its still a net positive compared to sitting around exploiting peoples weaknesses all day long.

IRT to bolded:
Nowadays a ton of my opponents are from Eastern Europe. They have shared databases of notes and are working their butt off to escape poverty. I imagine many of them are playing together in a room sharing thoughts on how to exploit me. Blasting off sims and searching for the next new software or high end bot to win even more money.

Yeah, I think it's silly to say you have to be immature or ******ed to be passionate about a card game. Just about any game or sport is repetitive to some degree.

I have had a blast playing poker for the last 10 years but can't say I would recommend going pro at this stage in the vast majority of cases. As previously suggested, maybe keep grinding on the side while sticking with the job.

Don't really agree with this argument. I think it is disingenuous to suggest that this is a central criteria for the career people in general will choose. Most would prioritise enjoying their work and having good pay and working conditions. Making a difference to society is much further down the list and I don't think that makes you a bad person. Plenty of other ways you can contribute in your life.

Obviously helping people and the humanity will be done, having the occupation of a poker player does not stop that.

It doesnt make u a bad person. Its just you end up spending 40+ hours a week for 10-20 years trying to figure out the best strategy to exploit people to take their money. Nearly any profession you pick is going to be a bigger net positive than poker pro.

Pokers a great strategy game. I still enjoy playing etc. I just would never ever suggest somebody starts doing it for a living when theirs so many better options to spend your time on that are not only more profitable but just more net positives overall then being a poker player. Outside of that the poker climate is just awful these days. Makes for a awesome hobby though and i hope it stays that way.

You do realize that almost all jobs involve exploiting humans for the worse, because thats where all the money is?

Disagree with this.

You have public service jobs, medical, and education(off the top of my head) which you can offer good to people for profit and dont exploit them. Sure big pharma and tons of corps are exploiting people in these fields but the standard 9-5 workers are not. Many businesses are using a strategy to exploit the most profit from the consumer. The thing is they also offering a product or service.

Even a business owner like my brother who owns a business in construction and (i imagine) is using a strategy to explot the most profit is still offering something thats needed in the world. As pro poker players we dont do anything but sit at a table and look for the weaker spots and take there money. If all the pro poker players in the world werent here tomorrow life would be exactly the same for everybody outside of casinos and online rooms. Actually even the casinos and online rooms may be better off.

This is spot on truth. Great hobby to supplement income and compete. I play at my local room 2 sometimes 3 nites per week. Earning around $35/hr.
It is enjoyable , but I think it would be hell to grind 40+ hrs. there.

I believe that you have an incorrect world view if that's your reasoning. There are a lot of ways to be exploited and I'd say its likely you have not considered all of them and the more subtle ones. That said, they are mostly unconsciously doing it because its "socially acceptable". Ok to agree to disagree though.