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Old 08-09-2018, 10:17 PM   #1
RalphWaldoEmerson
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antes in online nlhe

why don't people play more ante tables or sites prioritize them over non-ante tables? why don't we create zoom w/antes?

Just seems like there are easier and less retarded solutions to "fixing" nlhe online economy right now than creating new games like "unfold".

adding antes to nlhe is a simple addition to the game that makes it a lot more fun and more action without causing people to have to learn new rules/variants or go too far outside their comfort zone.
also equities will run a little bit closer due to the added $ in the pot which seems like a favorable situation from most everyone's POV in a poker economy that wants/should want to focus on the recreational experience.
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Old 08-09-2018, 10:20 PM   #2
PokerPlayingGamble
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Re: antes in online nlhe

the problem isn't the blind structure, imo, it is the lack of fish
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Old 08-09-2018, 10:56 PM   #3
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Re: antes in online nlhe

Without a bring in/limited open raise, it makes the game bigger and tighter.
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Old 08-09-2018, 10:57 PM   #4
SpinMeRightRound
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Re: antes in online nlhe

If it increases the rake generated for the poker sites, then there is no reason not to implement it imo. After all, poker sites aren't a charity - they are there to maximize their profits.
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Old 08-09-2018, 11:28 PM   #5
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Re: antes in online nlhe

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerPlayingGamble View Post
the problem isn't the blind structure, imo, it is the lack of fish
ok, but with antes

a) better odds on your limps first in
b) better odds to peel out of blinds than in regular nlhe

...both of which should appeal to rec players

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Originally Posted by pucmo View Post
Without a bring in/limited open raise, it makes the game bigger and tighter.
how so?
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Old 08-09-2018, 11:34 PM   #6
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Re: antes in online nlhe

They were ante tables or still are? People just didn't want to play these tables, you gotta accept and respect that. Can we leave nlhe cash alone for a while? Thank you.
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Old 08-10-2018, 12:28 AM   #7
Sir Huntington
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Re: antes in online nlhe

It's hard to play ante tables when you're 20 tabling. I'd imagine a winning 20 tabler would lose in those games or have at least a dip in winrates.
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Old 08-10-2018, 01:49 AM   #8
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Re: antes in online nlhe

An ante in the North of England is your father or mother's sister.
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Old 08-10-2018, 01:52 AM   #9
RalphWaldoEmerson
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Re: antes in online nlhe

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Originally Posted by SageDonkey View Post
An ante in the North of England is your father or mother's sister.
your post quality is improving, cheers

Quote:
Originally Posted by coach999 View Post
They were ante tables or still are? People just didn't want to play these tables, you gotta accept and respect that. Can we leave nlhe cash alone for a while? Thank you.
it's just a discussion topic, bro. no matter how many times you edit your post, your righteous indignation is still misplaced
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Old 08-10-2018, 11:53 AM   #10
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Re: antes in online nlhe

Should it actually make the game looser?
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Old 08-10-2018, 12:41 PM   #11
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Re: antes in online nlhe

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Should it actually make the game looser?
yes????
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Old 08-10-2018, 12:41 PM   #12
ArtyMcFly
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Re: antes in online nlhe

I think Stars got rid of the deepstack (250bb) ante games at the lowest limits because the fish were getting absolutely destroyed.
They have antes at high stakes don't they?
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Old 08-10-2018, 12:51 PM   #13
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Re: antes in online nlhe

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Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
I think Stars got rid of the deepstack (250bb) ante games at the lowest limits because the fish were getting absolutely destroyed.
They have antes at high stakes don't they?
Yeah the only deep ante games are at $25/50+. At all other stakes there is still 100bb ante games but i have no idea how popular they are these days
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Old 08-10-2018, 03:03 PM   #14
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Re: antes in online nlhe

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Originally Posted by SageDonkey View Post
An ante in the North of England is your father or mother's sister.
What about your father or mother's brother's wife?
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Old 08-10-2018, 03:49 PM   #15
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Re: antes in online nlhe

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Originally Posted by Brokenstars View Post
yes????
if minraising/limping isnt clearly the best strat in non ante, there's argument to be made that ante doesnt necessarily play looser than nonante as optimal strat
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Old 08-10-2018, 04:20 PM   #16
SageDonkey
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Re: antes in online nlhe

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What about your father or mother's brother's wife?
That's not a real ante, that's a button ante.
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Old 08-10-2018, 06:01 PM   #17
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Re: antes in online nlhe

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
I think Stars got rid of the deepstack (250bb) ante games at the lowest limits because the fish were getting absolutely destroyed.
They have antes at high stakes don't they?
I assumed they got rid of them because the crybabies that didn't want to face shortstackers still chose to play the games where people could play a shorter stack, rather than having to face real opposition, and hence they never ran. I could be wrong.

OP - it's pretty simple. NLHE is boring and it's basically dead, rather than try to push slightly different variants of the same boring game, learn to play new games. There's antes in play? Big deal, it's just a bigger starting pot, it'll take no time for the GTO morans to adjust their lolranges and the game is as dead as it is now
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Old 08-10-2018, 08:10 PM   #18
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Re: antes in online nlhe

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Originally Posted by doctor877 View Post
Should it actually make the game looser?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pucmo View Post
Without a bring in/limited open raise, it makes the game bigger and tighter.
6max, 5/5 with 5 ante. Pots is already 40. You have AKo utg. Are you going to open to 3x? Heck no, you will raise bigger, much bigger. So you open to whatever GTObots say is correct, 30 or 40 or w/e. The point is, in a 5/5 game that you bought in for 100BB, you open 7x-8x, are even recs calling with K9o anymore? Nope.

And saying well they should just buy in deeper than 100BB is not going to help them one bit. Recs usually think, I want to buy in for x amount, and the other detials are not as relevant. They won't realized they are getting killed until it's too late.

So the game is tighter and bigger.
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Old 08-11-2018, 12:09 AM   #19
RalphWaldoEmerson
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Re: antes in online nlhe

the fact that a pot sized raise is larger in an antes format does not equate to evidence that the game plays tighter. the odds to enter the pot against a pot sized raise are the same/similar in both formats, like wat r u saying? it's still cheaper to limp in in antes format than non ante, and unless people are always potting preflop in antes, you will tend to get better odds to call in most situations.
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Old 08-11-2018, 12:19 AM   #20
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Re: antes in online nlhe

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Originally Posted by doctor877 View Post
if minraising/limping isnt clearly the best strat in non ante, there's argument to be made that ante doesnt necessarily play looser than nonante as optimal strat
I must not be understanding something because my ranges in ante games are pry like 10% looser.
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Old 08-11-2018, 03:38 AM   #21
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Re: antes in online nlhe

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Originally Posted by doctor877 View Post
if minraising/limping isnt clearly the best strat in non ante, there's argument to be made that ante doesnt necessarily play looser than nonante as optimal strat
No matter how you size your opens, your open range should be wider with antes. When you raise the pot in a non-ante game you're risking 3.5 blinds to win 1.5. When you raise the pot in a full ante game you're risking 4.5 to in 2.5. The price you're laying to the people in the blinds may be the same but the price you're getting to steal is not.

There's a balance between how much others loosen up to reflect your increased steal rate and how much you tighten up to reflect their increased defense rate, but the net result is slightly looser for everyone.
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Old 08-11-2018, 04:21 AM   #22
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Re: antes in online nlhe

It's not so obvious for positions like UTG.

For SB and BTN it's clear, but you should also get flatted+3B by BTN more often when opening on CO or earlier positions, which should reduce your opening range.

Also depending on the ante size (prob not with traditional ante size)- perfect play can result in UTG being a -EV position to play just like SB and BB are in no-ante games.

Changing structures is def interesting topic.
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Old 08-11-2018, 04:57 AM   #23
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Re: antes in online nlhe

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Originally Posted by RalphWaldoEmerson View Post
the fact that a pot sized raise is larger in an antes format does not equate to evidence that the game plays tighter. the odds to enter the pot against a pot sized raise are the same/similar in both formats, like wat r u saying? it's still cheaper to limp in in antes format than non ante, and unless people are always potting preflop in antes, you will tend to get better odds to call in most situations.
there are lots of reasons fish and sites dont like antes.

its ok, no one liked your idea, just walk it off, dont need to argue every post.
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Old 08-11-2018, 03:21 PM   #24
RalphWaldoEmerson
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Re: antes in online nlhe

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Originally Posted by gamboneee View Post
there are lots of reasons fish and sites dont like antes.

its ok, no one liked your idea, just walk it off, dont need to argue every post.
hehe thanks for stopping by mate
what are the reasons?
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Old 08-11-2018, 05:15 PM   #25
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Re: antes in online nlhe

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Originally Posted by watergun7 View Post
It's not so obvious for positions like UTG.

For SB and BTN it's clear, but you should also get flatted+3B by BTN more often when opening on CO or earlier positions, which should reduce your opening range.
You would reduce it relative to what you would hypothetically open if other peoples responses were identical to a non-ante game. But it would still in all cases be at least marginally higher than your optimal open range in a non-ante game.

As a point of reference look at how 10 blind stacks would play out assuming it's push/fold. People will call your utg shove a bit wider but that doesn't mean you shouldn't increase the shove frequency. The change just becomes successively smaller the more people there are left to act, ie: your button shove range might increase from 30% to 50%, but your utg range might only increase from 12% to 15%. The reason why is hard to articulate but you can test it out (and im sure my numbers aren't spot on fwiw but the general trend should be).

Quote:
Also depending on the ante size (prob not with traditional ante size)- perfect play can result in UTG being a -EV position to play just like SB and BB are in no-ante games.

Changing structures is def interesting topic.
If there was no small blind to the left of the button in a non-ante game the person in the SB's position would now show a profit but their VPIP would be smaller. Alternatively the existence of an ante might make UTG an unprofitable position but the optimal VPIP is still higher.
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