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Old 06-04-2015, 01:50 PM   #126
limon
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Re: Allegations of Cheating in WSOP 10k HU

I you were going to cheat poker a live HU tourney would definitely be the place to do it. that said, if ink was used the cheater wouldnt do anything strange with his cards or stall at all, he would bring no attention to himself. you can watch surveillance videos of cheaters marking cards with ink in table games, it is smooth and flawless.

some sort of nicking or warping would be more likely, but again an experienced cheater who had been plying his trade in europes casinos for years (as alleged) could complete this maneuver without stalling. also if he was only behaving this way with the first deck and not after deck changes it would make no sense.

There could be a deck defect he was manipulating but he changed his style of play after 10 hands, no known defect would be powerful enough to hold over an opponent after 10 hands.

The chances he just ran hot and/or outplayed some "pros" with huge egos is most likely answer, i hope it is cheating because im intrigued to learn the way he did it.
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Old 06-04-2015, 01:51 PM   #127
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Re: Allegations of Cheating in WSOP 10k HU

so sick
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Old 06-04-2015, 01:51 PM   #128
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Re: Allegations of Cheating in WSOP 10k HU

Ban sunglasses.
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Old 06-04-2015, 01:54 PM   #129
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Re: Allegations of Cheating in WSOP 10k HU

Did the guy have an Asian companion?
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Old 06-04-2015, 01:54 PM   #130
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Re: Allegations of Cheating in WSOP 10k HU

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Originally Posted by blanconegro View Post
....
I made my first button raise in a while which was a shove with 33 and he snapped me with k5o for 20bb.
...
If anything this evidence would seem to be in the accused's favor. Why take a 20BB flip in a game where you have the edge brought by being able to 'see' the cards?
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Old 06-04-2015, 01:55 PM   #131
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Re: Allegations of Cheating in WSOP 10k HU

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Originally Posted by thefinchster22 View Post
does the casino have footage from all the matches? or does the eye in the sky only show a live feed?

and what should they do to make it right if they find out he was cheating? how should the players he busted get compensated?
Since convention center space is morphed into gaming floor space during WSOP, each table would have to have video surveillance, and yes that footage would be stored.

The issue here would be the resolution / frame rate.

Casino cameras inside a cage or on a baccarat table .... high resolution, high frame rate. best they can get.

Casinos cameras in Amazon during WSOP, not sure about resolution / frame rate. likely the cheapest they can get to meet regulatory requirement for a gaming floor.

so not sure what sort of detail, if any, they will be able to pick up from the tape.
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Old 06-04-2015, 01:55 PM   #132
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Re: Allegations of Cheating in WSOP 10k HU

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I can't imagine how bending cards would not be noticed in a casino. Its not the 1800's anymore. People are used to newish decks. Dealers and players are experienced. Any bent card stands out. Inks..OK. Bent cards..I just can't imagine it.
This. The dealer and other players would notice bent cards right away.
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Old 06-04-2015, 01:55 PM   #133
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Re: Allegations of Cheating in WSOP 10k HU

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Originally Posted by mark100net View Post
If anything this evidence would seem to be in the accused's favor. Why take a 20BB flip in a game where you have the edge brought by being able to 'see' the cards?
Pls stop posting if u cant get an aswer for that call.
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Old 06-04-2015, 01:59 PM   #134
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Re: Allegations of Cheating in WSOP 10k HU

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Originally Posted by mark100net View Post
If anything this evidence would seem to be in the accused's favor. Why take a 20BB flip in a game where you have the edge brought by being able to 'see' the cards?
Yea. When I read this I thought it was a bizarre piece of 'proof' to add to his allegation tbh. Rather insignificant. Was he suggesting that the alleged cheater had known he had 33 and called for the flip?
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Old 06-04-2015, 02:01 PM   #135
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Re: Allegations of Cheating in WSOP 10k HU

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Originally Posted by alexo18 View Post
Pls stop posting if u cant get an aswer for that call.
Please stop posting if you can't respond to substance.
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Old 06-04-2015, 02:08 PM   #136
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Re: Allegations of Cheating in WSOP 10k HU

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Originally Posted by mark100net View Post
If anything this evidence would seem to be in the accused's favor. Why take a 20BB flip in a game where you have the edge brought by being able to 'see' the cards?
With those stack sizes it is going to be all-in pre a lot of the time anyway. He knows his opponent has no ace or king so it's a call.
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Old 06-04-2015, 02:10 PM   #137
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Re: Allegations of Cheating in WSOP 10k HU

Re: K5o call.

Cheater sees Connor held no ace or king in his hand, assumes K high might be good and is 30% vs QQ at worst with a shot to see out the match and take a gamble that doesn't really effect his chances of winning.

Cheater may have also marked low cards and knew he was likely ahead, flipping or maybe even dominating.
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Old 06-04-2015, 02:15 PM   #138
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Re: Allegations of Cheating in WSOP 10k HU

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Originally Posted by spaceman View Post
This. The dealer and other players would notice bent cards right away.
In my career I've probably had ~40 bent cards pointed out during games (mostly during NLSD) and I've never spotted one myself.
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Old 06-04-2015, 02:15 PM   #139
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Re: Allegations of Cheating in WSOP 10k HU

The one thing that concerns me is both Byron and Keith were warned ahead of time to protect their hands etc which may have led to less marking etc in the decks that were inspected. Also, the floor was standing right next to the match the whole time. The real decks that need to be looked at are the ones used on Day 1 but I'm not sure they have those separated/still available at this time.

For those of you saying "sour grapes," I remind you that its the collective story that really convinced us. The same things that were evidenced in the Czech article (ace high/king high board aggression bc of markings, weird timing and looking early on in the match, constant messing about with the cards) all happened to us individually and made us convinced there was more going on than met the eye. We all know there's a ton of variance in a hu match and just winning alone isn't even a blip of evidence against him: it's everything else that went along with it.

Also, like I said the invisible ink theory was just one of many mostly sparked by the way he was looking around and a picture a friend took of him with napkins in his pocket that he often reached into. Like Galen said, I've never noticed a marked card in my life despite having 40-50 pointed out over my lifetime of playing.
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Old 06-04-2015, 02:17 PM   #140
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Re: Allegations of Cheating in WSOP 10k HU

Not sure if someone told this here already, but in Brazil some people got caught cheating like that this way:
They had an ink in a ring(they put that inside a ring like in a fake stone) that could only be seen by a special contact lenses or even a sunglass, they used to mark the cards in specific places so they could know every single card...

They used to travel all over brazil and cheat for 1-2 weeks and every single club here. Eventually they got caught,**** went public and they banned from everywhere. BTW, eventually they processed everyone that made it public lol. Know nobody cant talk about this in Brazilian forums, sites, etc.
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Old 06-04-2015, 02:18 PM   #141
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Re: Allegations of Cheating in WSOP 10k HU

Quote:
Originally Posted by handbag86 View Post
Re: K5o call.

Cheater sees Connor held no ace or king in his hand, assumes K high might be good and is 30% vs QQ at worst with a shot to see out the match and take a gamble that doesn't really effect his chances of winning.

Cheater may have also marked low cards and knew he was likely ahead, flipping or maybe even dominating.
Wouldn't make sense to mark both low and high cards unless you could distinguish them from each other. Maybe he was bending the high cards, and using ink on the low cards.

Bent = A or broadway
Ink = 2-6
No ink, not bent = 7-10
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Old 06-04-2015, 02:22 PM   #142
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Re: Allegations of Cheating in WSOP 10k HU

Based on everything I've heard and read I'd be quite surprised if he wasn't cheating. Curious to see how the investigation plays out.
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Old 06-04-2015, 02:23 PM   #143
handbag86
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Re: Allegations of Cheating in WSOP 10k HU

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Originally Posted by rtd353 View Post
Wouldn't make sense to mark both low and high cards unless you could distinguish them from each other. Maybe he was bending the high cards, and using ink on the low cards.

Bent = A or broadway
Ink = 2-6
No ink, not bent = 7-10
Yea I was assuming there would be some distinction based on the card value. For example a dot for a 2, all the way up to a long line for an ace.
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Old 06-04-2015, 02:25 PM   #144
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Re: Allegations of Cheating in WSOP 10k HU

So if he gets dq'd they give his 4 opponents their 10k back what about the other 16?
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Old 06-04-2015, 02:27 PM   #145
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Re: Allegations of Cheating in WSOP 10k HU

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Originally Posted by DarkMattersMan View Post
Yea. When I read this I thought it was a bizarre piece of 'proof' to add to his allegation tbh. Rather insignificant. Was he suggesting that the alleged cheater had known he had 33 and called for the flip?
Idk, I think it matters. Why would he take such a risk? and if we are saying he may have been marking cards it would be very clear why he took such a risk..although even if he was marking..how would he know he would win the flip? He would really only know he was ahead..if we think he was really thinking about this and making calculated moves he may actually make this move with the intention of saying "Why would I do that if I was cheating!"...

Just thinking out loud.
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Old 06-04-2015, 02:28 PM   #146
TheMcC
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Re: Allegations of Cheating in WSOP 10k HU

This is sickening

Not sure if I want it to be true and him caught or just a case of ridiculous rungood. Can't help feeling it's the former... Hope that WSOP will be monitoring the rest of the series even more closely now. ��
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Old 06-04-2015, 02:37 PM   #147
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Re: Allegations of Cheating in WSOP 10k HU

Quote:
Originally Posted by handbag86 View Post
Re: K5o call.

Cheater sees Connor held no ace or king in his hand, assumes K high might be good and is 30% vs QQ at worst
I'm sure you realize QQ is not the worst hand he can turn over.
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Old 06-04-2015, 02:41 PM   #148
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Re: Allegations of Cheating in WSOP 10k HU

K5o hand is whatever, remember what kind of calls potripper made on that tournament instead of just making the right decisions in key spots and make a good living forever. (or at least a couple of month.)
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Old 06-04-2015, 02:42 PM   #149
aaronmermel
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Re: Allegations of Cheating in WSOP 10k HU

So I played Val after Prat and I just wanted to confirm what the other guys were saying. In the first level Val was mostly very passive, limping all buttons and only calling my raises pf. I chipped him down to 75k from 120k ss and thought to myself Prat must've really taken a bad beat to lose to this guy. As each level moved on he became more and more aggressive and bold and became much tougher to play against. As Connor mentioned he was really good at folding when I did have "it" and 3 betting me when i didn't have it. After I lost I just thought the guy was a live one who is on the run of his life, and if I'm being completely honest I was really thinking he was crushing my soul in live reads somehow. When Connor and Prat came to me with their stories, in addition to his most recent past and taken account my HH it is clear to me that he had to have known about certain cards in the deck based upon his play. Its hard to give 1 HH and say for sure that Val was cheating. Even the weakest of players are capable of making "the right" plays from time to time. All that being after level 1 or maybe 2, I don't recall any hands that i won with an Ace, King or Q in my hand that we took to a flop. The hands I did win with were all hands 2-j and the biggest pots that I won were mainly because he was trying to rep q+.

Since he was able to avoid so many confrontations preflop its hard to give so much hh for how the match was effected but ill do my best.

Some hands that stood out

1) Val limps button. I 3x out of bb with K2cc. Flop Aj3sdc. I lead 1/3rd. He asks to see my stack. I lift my arms to show him. He raises me 3x my bet. I tank for a while here because he is repping nothing but decide to move on and he snap flips over 47hh. Nh sir.

2) I limp button with 62hh. Val checks. Flop Q62r. I bet half, he 4xes me. I call and he seems completely perplexed. Makes sense if you know I don't have a q and rarely 66 or 22. He ends up giving up on the turn but obviously that stood out to me.

3) My bustout hand. He limps button. I rip A2 for 20bb. He does this thing where he moves around a bit to look at me, my cards? In this spot I really felt he was looking directly at my cards. After some hesitation he called with Aten and gg.

4) My most embarrassing hand of the match. Val limps button. I check behind with K7off. Flop AQ7xxx. Chk. Chk. Turn 6. Ck. Ck. River 2. I check. He bets 3k into 4k I go to call and accidentally through in a 5k chip almost simultaneously as I said call but I believe the chips hit the table first as it stood it was a raise to 7k and I didn't fight it. Val snap clicks back to 18k, won't try to justify it here but I called here with the nut 7 pair. He ends up having q3 here which is either a super solid value bet or someone who is positive I don't have an Ace or Q in that spot and only is marginally worried about the two pair combos of 7s, 6s, and 2s.

Obviously there's more from me and others but that's what I have for now.
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Old 06-04-2015, 02:42 PM   #150
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Re: Allegations of Cheating in WSOP 10k HU

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinger88 View Post
Based on everything I've heard and read I'd be quite surprised if he wasn't cheating. Curious to see how the investigation plays out.


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