Forgot to add the "next day you come back with sunglasses so you can peek with less risk" at the end

The Foxen hand with Bicknell really isn't qualified to be discussed by the majority of people that are discussing poker in this thread. Even gazzy from this thread who I consider a really strong cash game player had some outlandish takes on the Phil Hellmuth Q4o hand in the recent Doug Polk podcast suggesting Hellmuth should have drawn his bluffs from more playable KJo, etc hands 16 bb's deep if like getting flatted in that spot was even much of an issue.

ICM is a real thing in tournaments and Foxen and Bicknell made it aware that they had clear expected dollar EV value in each other going into the three handed situation. Even in a normal situation with JJ in Foxen's shoes JJ is fairly close to bottom of range get it preflop in with the 3rd player being so short three handed with consideration to ICM and those stacks and especially once you consider the dynamic that was laid out to the 3rd player ahead of it all JJ becomes a way worse get in preflop. They just have zero incentive to run large bluffs against each other so accordingly their balance value ranges on all streets just become so much tighter.

It's a terrible situation for that 3rd player but arguing that Foxen and Bicknell should have to somehow play some sort of GTO balanced 3way strategy as if the swap didn't exist which is against their best regard is also really a difficult take when you consider that swapping is an accepted thing in tournaments.

As soon as you start realizing that Foxen and Bicknell will not want to bluff each other at proper frequencies you realize that their value ranges for getting it in also become so much tighter in these spots which are already so tight considering the ICM of the situation and the third player being so much shorter.

^ Alex, is it you?

he's right

na. whatever, can eliminate that post if you wish but it's crazy to me that he was possibly banned from a few sites for that particular hand when in reality alot of it is people confusing what is chipEV with what is $EV in a tournament.

You can simplify by making Foxen four bet shove there and asking yourself how excited is he when Bicknell calls his four bet shove with the 3rd player short stacked in this situation. It's profitable of course but once you start lowering Bicknells 3bet bluff range and then once you start considering what her calling range of the 4bet shove is in this situation JJ is never going to be super happy in an ICM heavy situation especially once you start to factor in 30% swaps. Even if they aren't considered though JJ is never super happy to run stacks against 4bet calling range of Bicknell with the 3rd player much shorter.

I absolutely would not softplay anybody in this spot. Spouse, sibling, parent ... this is a game of individuals. Some of us have respect for the game.

I guess some people have more respect for their spouse than a game of cards, that said this hand was not really a big deal, top 3 with ICM can be ridiculously tight when it's the top 2 chips playing against each other, tourney life is just worth waaaaay too much compared to chips EV

Doug podcast just ended, I assume it covers some of this stuff but haven't watched it yet (Him and Greg merson discussing poker cheating)

Not remotely close to the same thing as a dry side pot with one short stacked player all in.
That AA vs JJ hand is a joke.
Neither one is playing that hand the same way against anyone else with the same chip stacks.

Them getting banned from multiple sites and getting their money back isn't exactly a ringing endorsement for them either.

so try and make no money with top set?

FOHRider doing a podcast on poker cheating lol the irony..

? he called flop, bet turn and bet river... what are you talking about?

He tried to make the stone minimum and did.
Are you trying to give him credit for betting the river instead of checking it back? Or for not folding the flop?
And she's just check folding river with her hand against anyone else in this spot? Not a chance.




These 2 aren't playing their hands this way with these chip stacks against anyone else which like I said is a totally different situation than people checking down 2 mediocre hands in a dry side pot with a short stack all in.

what do you think his value range is there

Against her boyfriend who she's colluded online with? Pretty narrow tbh.It's still a call with those odds.

The river pot size was 2m he had 1.3m behind. That is a river jam 100% of the time, you can't be that bad at poker to think otherwise. What made it even more obvious was him staring at her multiple times which was imo a clear attempt to signal she was beat. She folded instantly after he gave her another look. I bet foxxen never usually does that. Doug says its a 100% jam I will take his opinion over some 2+2 nobody, not that I needed his opinion since its so obvious anyway. Well to most people.

I don't think that Foxen-Bicknell hand is a big deal. And I think they were trying to play it straight up and not collude with each other. It was just always going to take more of a cooler for these two to get it in.

How about this scenario. Satellite tournament top 8 get a ticket and 9th gets nothing. 9 left short stack jams two big stacks call and check down a dry side pot. One of them even checks the nuts on flop and turn. Collusion? Cheating?

But 600k didn't get called. So jamming definitely isn't getting called. By betting smaller he's actually more likely to get called which makes this LESS proof of collusion not more. He's betting his hand for value.

Wesley would say it's an overplay

It's ... somehow disrespectful to ... NOT implicitly collude with someone else at the poker table? To ... compete to the best of your ability in this game of individuals, even if you're in a relationship with one of your opponents?

"let's chop up this 3rd guy's EV! HONORABLE!"

wat

I don't want them to face any particular consequence for this one, they did at least take the classy (morally necessary, IMO, but anyway...) step of informing the 3rd player of their situation. They're just lame pieces of **** in general, that's all.

Although, I lol'd at the banning from both GG and ACR. No fire to all that smoke though, no way!

it's cool to implicitly collude with someone, as long as you're married to them

that's just RESPECT

LOL! Aren't Foxen and Bricknell married? Aren't they already swapping 50%, by law? A prenup must be involved here! A married couple swapping action with each other, friggin' hilarious.

Pro Tip: Bring your prenup to the Final Table for full disclosure.

I can be that bad to think otherwise.

If we want to give Foxen bluffs do they want to bluff all in for his tourney life? Do we consider Bicknell to mostly have bluff catchers at this point? Could Foxen want to pick a size for value and bluffs that makes her bluff catchers the most indifferent while still maintaining his tourney life if called in this spot?

Again, you have to think of the hand outside of pure chipEV.

Randomly came across this drama on Twitter after being out of the poker loop for years and this is so funny and weird. When I was playing a lot in the late 2000s virtually everyone was using HUDs, including virtually all the respected regs/pros who were posting on here then

Also peeking IRL is fair game, I dunno what this Foxen dude is smoking

Awesome results oriented thinking. lol. Apparently mandatory jams are no longer jams just incase you sometimes don't get called. And bluffs? 1/3 sizing apparently lol. cheers fish.

Also like I said earlier I think his staring was a clear signal to her. When do you see someone staring right into another persons eyes like that multiple times? Looked clear to me.

So you think the 1/3 pot sizing is the a reasonable bluff sizing there? lol! Of course you want to bluff all in and put your opponent on the hook for their tourney life. That sizing hand no fold equity at all in a 3bet pot, targeting AA AK, Again, you are arguing theory with doug polk here who said its a 100% jam.

Her folding AA to that river sizing is basically a confession his signal worked. Its a snap call as he can easily value bet worse there. collusion is clearly effective vs stupid people it seems.