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Old 05-30-2017, 12:37 PM   #176
Avaritia
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

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Originally Posted by SrslySirius View Post
When I went to a casino to play live poker for the first time, I was a bit paranoid about people stealing my chips when I went to the bathroom, or "gotcha" games where experienced players might use obscure rules to kill my hand or somehow screw me over. Friends assured me that I was being ridiculous and that's it's a perfectly safe environment.

If instead they had showed me this thread, I might have stayed home.
Funny. I remember first starting out how nervous I was to leave chips.

Just the other night i went to the bathroom and came back to a drunk sitting in my seat playing a hand with my stack in front of him.

I used to think this was some sort of urban poker legend bc how could the players/dealer not notice. But here this dude was. Potting away.
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Old 05-30-2017, 12:47 PM   #177
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

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Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
Funny. I remember first starting out how nervous I was to leave chips.

Just the other night i went to the bathroom and came back to a drunk sitting in my seat playing a hand with my stack in front of him.

I used to think this was some sort of urban poker legend bc how could the players/dealer not notice. But here this dude was. Potting away.
What was the outcome? Do you get back all your money? If he loses a pot does the other player who won the pot forfeit the money? What's the procedure?
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Old 05-30-2017, 01:10 PM   #178
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

How long was alec playing in the game for and did he addon or he bought in with the 5k chips ? In my opinion it's an angle that can be prevented by the allin guy just asking how much he's roughly playing.
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Old 05-30-2017, 01:18 PM   #179
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

I don't see how this can be considered an angle rather than blatant cheating.
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Old 05-30-2017, 01:28 PM   #180
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

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Originally Posted by Jonny Nukes View Post
How long was alec playing in the game for and did he addon or he bought in with the 5k chips ? In my opinion it's an angle that can be prevented by the allin guy just asking how much he's roughly playing.
cute that you believe the onus to prevent angles and/or cheating is on the potential victim(s).

are we ****ing serious right now?
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Old 05-30-2017, 02:01 PM   #181
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

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Originally Posted by MastaAces View Post
cute that you believe the onus to prevent angles and/or cheating is on the potential victim(s).

are we ****ing serious right now?
Technically he's right though, it's an angle, and it can be prevented by the potential victim. That doesn't mean that it should be up to the potential victims to prevent this type of cheating, it just means they can prevent it. It's not up to me to chase down bank robbers, but if I see some I can do that if I want.
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Old 05-30-2017, 02:11 PM   #182
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

the outfit he's wearing is a far bigger crime against humanity than the angleshot itself
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Old 05-30-2017, 02:53 PM   #183
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

If he would have done it up with gaudy jewelry and a sombrerro with a feather it might actually be a step up. He somehow managed to find the exact mid point between conservative and flamboyant that speaks to basically no one.
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Old 05-30-2017, 03:02 PM   #184
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

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Originally Posted by Cooozy View Post
Technically he's right though, it's an angle, and it can be prevented by the potential victim. That doesn't mean that it should be up to the potential victims to prevent this type of cheating, it just means they can prevent it. It's not up to me to chase down bank robbers, but if I see some I can do that if I want.

Required:
"Chips must be kept in plain view"

Prohibited:
"Making statements or taking actions that could unfairly influence the course of play..."

Not sure how there could really be any question (regardless of Alec's intent). His action of keeping the 5k chips surrounded by smaller denomination chips made and kept them out of plain view. This action clearly influenced the course of play.

As for intent, it sure looks sketchy. But the most lol part is the "it probably won't affect my decision" bs. Then he does an enterview and layer entire strat video on how it affected his decision.
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Old 05-30-2017, 03:31 PM   #185
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

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Originally Posted by andrew12341231 View Post
What was the outcome? Do you get back all your money? If he loses a pot does the other player who won the pot forfeit the money? What's the procedure?
Fortunately the hand he was playing was the first one. I caught him as he was potting pre flop. Floor killed entire hand and pot was evenly re-distrubted to much rage.

Had several hands or signicifant action taken place, no idea what would have happened. I assume it would have been on me to give accurate chip count (always count before you get up!) and for camera to confirm.
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Old 05-30-2017, 03:40 PM   #186
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

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Originally Posted by andrew12341231 View Post
What was the outcome? Do you get back all your money? If he loses a pot does the other player who won the pot forfeit the money? What's the procedure?
If you catch him during the hand it is an easy fix. No matter whether he just jammed the river and got snapped by the nuts, the hand is void. If it is hands later I can't really see money being returned from other players so they probably just call the police and report a theft. More interesting is when the idiot plays a few hands and actually books a win.

Also how did nobody on that table notice that there's a different guy playing with that stack including the dealer? Were they all blind?
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Old 05-30-2017, 05:01 PM   #187
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

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Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
Fortunately the hand he was playing was the first one. I caught him as he was potting pre flop. Floor killed entire hand and pot was evenly re-distrubted to much rage.

Had several hands or signicifant action taken place, no idea what would have happened. I assume it would have been on me to give accurate chip count (always count before you get up!) and for camera to confirm.
reminds me of a time when a player bought 200 in chips, as the runner was going to get the chips the dealer "fronted" the player the money, he was all-in and lost that hand. later when the runner brought the chips to the player he got up and left with them while the dealer was distracted.... stole $200 from the dealer. the floor came over and told the dealer he's not supposed to do that and he's out the $200......
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Old 05-30-2017, 05:10 PM   #188
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

For us donks is AQ right after AK, not bad hand to put shortstack allin.
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Old 05-30-2017, 05:34 PM   #189
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by SrslySirius View Post
When I went to a casino to play live poker for the first time, I was a bit paranoid about people stealing my chips when I went to the bathroom, or "gotcha" games where experienced players might use obscure rules to kill my hand or somehow screw me over. Friends assured me that I was being ridiculous and that's it's a perfectly safe environment.

If instead they had showed me this thread, I might have stayed home.
I think you're a bit naive if you don't think chip stealing is a real thing. It happens fairly often. Actually the last time I was at the casino a player got busted for stealing a $500 chip off another player's stack. The casino will not reimburse you for stolen chips as it is your responsibility to protect them. So yeah, if it would really upset you to have big chips stolen I'd recommend keeping them on your person. Regardless, I always count my chips before leaving the table and cap my big chips with smaller ones. Where I play chip thieves generally receive a 24hr ban.

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Originally Posted by Robot9999 View Post
Say Alec had 77 on that hand and Wolf had AA. Both have 20k. Assume he would call 10k preflop with 77, but would fold to a 20k preflop re-raise. Wolf says " all in" thinking he is betting 10k, when in reality he is betting 20k. Alec folds 77 and misses the chance to stack the Wolf when the 7 shows up on the flop.
In that situation, the misread caused Wolf to bet more than he normally would have and win the hand.
Yeah, but we never got to see the turn or river. Wolf still could have hit his Ace.
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Old 05-30-2017, 05:44 PM   #190
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by SrslySirius View Post
When I went to a casino to play live poker for the first time, I was a bit paranoid about people stealing my chips when I went to the bathroom, or "gotcha" games where experienced players might use obscure rules to kill my hand or somehow screw me over. Friends assured me that I was being ridiculous and that's it's a perfectly safe environment.
Man, you would have loved the charity cardroom I started playing at. All of your paranoia, and then some, would be realized.
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Old 05-30-2017, 06:11 PM   #191
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by cAmmAndo View Post
Required:
"Chips must be kept in plain view"

Prohibited:
"Making statements or taking actions that could unfairly influence the course of play..."
I said it's an angle and a type of cheating, of course he's not allowed to do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cAmmAndo View Post
Not sure how there could really be any question (regardless of Alec's intent). His action of keeping the 5k chips surrounded by smaller denomination chips made and kept them out of plain view. This action clearly influenced the course of play.
Yeah, it gives him an unfair advantage, no doubt about that. Anyone arguing otherwise has no idea what they're talking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cAmmAndo View Post
As for intent, it sure looks sketchy. But the most lol part is the "it probably won't affect my decision" bs. Then he does an enterview and layer entire strat video on how it affected his decision.
To me the sketchiest thing is that he said to the floor, "he misread my stack". In order for that not to be cheating, he would have to put the chips there by accident, then continue to be completely oblivious about it even after the incident and then make no mention of it to the floor out of pure ignorance.
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Old 05-30-2017, 06:39 PM   #192
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

Just look at his acting, first I think that it is for camera to boost count views like some controversy stunt to get attention.
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Old 05-30-2017, 07:42 PM   #193
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

First of all, count me on the side of this being an angle, an opinion that was greatly solidified by Soulwaxical's GIF.

That in mind, I must now ask a really, really dumb question... so dumb that I hereby apologize in advance for asking it. However, I don't have enough live experience to know the answer:

That the larger denomination chips should be out front or on top of the stacks is an actual, explicit rule in tournament play [Specifically, Rule 24(a) of the PokerTDA Rules]. That much we all know. However, in a cash game, is it still a rule or is it merely etiquette?

Of course, many card rooms have posted rules, so I would imagine a big-chips-out-front rule is explicitly stated on many of such postings. But could this vary from room to room? And if so, was this episode of PNIA in a location that had no such rule, giving Torelli just enough latitude — even if it's in his own mind — to attempt such an angle?

I went looking for different card room's poker rules online. Tourney rules are easy to locate, and all of them state this rule outright in some way. But cash-game rules were harder to find than I thought they would be. I did locate the following:

Borgata: https://www.theborgata.com/assets/we...ide/index.html (explicit rule)
Mohegan Sun: https://mohegansunpocono.com/content...oker_Guide.pdf (not explicit but heavily implied)
EPT Cash Games: http://www.europeanpokertour.com/poker/cash-games/ (no mention)
San Manuel: https://www.sanmanuel.com/flipbook/p...les/page/10-11 (explicit rule)
Cache Creek: https://www.cachecreek.com/gaming/ta...es/poker-room/ (no mention, albeit in a very small "Poker Room Rules" section)
Seneca: http://www.senecagames.com/senecapoker-room-rules.html (no mention)
River Rock Casino: http://www.riverrock.com/casino/poker/poker-rules/ (no mention, although the page admits that it only contains a partial list)
Great Northern Casino: http://www.greatnortherncasino.net/P...se%20Rules.pdf (explicit rule)
Olympic Park: http://www.olympic-casino.ee/poker/i...ker_club_rules (explicit rule)

So from this limited sample of rooms, many of which are pretty obscure, it's hit-or-miss as to whether the high-denom rule is explicitly stated.

Granted, the rule is so well-known to experienced players that it's almost akin to Jim Jefferies' bit about No Smoking signs: you shouldn't need a poster to know to follow it. And certainly Torelli has played enough poker to know not to hide his 5Ks behind that wall of ante chips.

However, is it possible/likely that Torelli found a room with no such rule for cash games, then decided to take advantage?
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Old 05-30-2017, 08:39 PM   #194
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

Most of those rule sets are going to be incomplete, as it's difficult to capture everything explicitly. That's why power is given to the floor to make the best rulings in the interest of fairness.

Many rooms use Robert's Rules as a base for cash game rules. See #18 under "Procedures":

Quote:
18. Any player is entitled to a clear view of an opponent’s chips. Higher denomination chips should be easily visible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilbury Twist View Post
is it possible/likely that Torelli found a room with no such rule for cash games
Well it appears he did because the room allowed it. Nothing prevents the floor from stepping in, and so by not doing so they basically said it's fine. Rooms that don't have a rule about keeping higher denomination chips visible are rare, while obviously rooms that allow angles are less so.
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Old 05-30-2017, 08:48 PM   #195
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

I know I'm likely being trolled, but for those who are genuinely curious about the "rules", remember we are talking about an angle here.

Wikipedia had a lovely definition:

"Angle shooting is engaging in actions that may technically be within the scope of the rules of the game, but that are considered unethical or unfair to exploit or take advantage of another player"

So you see whether it's explicitly stated or not in the rules it's an angle (Actually it is this gray area that makes angles angles). It is well known to anyone with more than 50 hours of live 1/2 under their belt that large denomination chips need to be up front/top. It's very very very well known in bigger games, and with larger chips having a clear distinction, it's actually a very hard "mistake" to make.
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Old 05-30-2017, 08:56 PM   #196
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
I know I'm likely being trolled, but for those who are genuinely curious about the "rules", remember we are talking about an angle here.

Wikipedia had a lovely definition:

"Angle shooting is engaging in actions that may technically be within the scope of the rules of the game, but that are considered unethical or unfair to exploit or take advantage of another player"

So you see whether it's explicitly stated or not in the rules it's an angle (Actually it is this gray area that makes angles angles). It is well known to anyone with more than 50 hours of live 1/2 under their belt that large denomination chips need to be up front/top. It's very very very well known in bigger games, and with larger chips having a clear distinction, it's actually a very hard "mistake" to make.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I 100% agree that it's at the very least a pretty douchey move. (I thought I made this clear in my post above, but apparently I didn't.) Put another way, it's either outright illegal or it's an angle. In no way was I attempting to excuse the move.
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Old 05-30-2017, 10:00 PM   #197
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

And the lesson is that it doesn't matter what people consider to be an angle if the casino isn't going to enforce it, so don't lull yourself into a false sense of security just because you'll get sympathy from people on the internet. At least you can take some solace in knowing that this will likely cost him an invite or two to lucrative private games. Good job ****ting where you eat, alec. With the cameras on no less. He don't care what NO one thinks.
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Old 05-30-2017, 10:06 PM   #198
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

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Originally Posted by Abbaddabba View Post
He don't care what NO one thinks.
Quick aside... does anyone else here read this sentence as if spoken by Creed Bratton?
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Old 05-31-2017, 02:29 AM   #199
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
Fortunately the hand he was playing was the first one. I caught him as he was potting pre flop. Floor killed entire hand and pot was evenly re-distrubted to much rage.

Had several hands or signicifant action taken place, no idea what would have happened. I assume it would have been on me to give accurate chip count (always count before you get up!) and for camera to confirm.
reminds me of a similar instance back when poker was boomin and tables were full throughout the casino. floor mistakenly sends new player to a full table, where one seat is empty because player is on break.

new player gives cash to runner and goes to sit down in seat where he finds stack of chips waiting for him. without confirming count, effortlessly dusts off stack in less then 10 mins, gets up, and leaves.

original seat occupant and rightful owner of the now decimated stack returns to much chagrin.

floor is called and video is reviewed. mistake is noted and chips are returned to player.
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Old 05-31-2017, 02:47 AM   #200
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

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Originally Posted by Dream Crusher View Post
Where I play chip thieves generally receive a 24hr ban.
This must be a joke or you play at the most corrupt casino ever. The police should be called and charges pressed, of course, and a life time ban. Maybe the casino has experience with these types of players and they know the thief will take the stolen chips and play baccarat unless he loses all your money.
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