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Old 05-25-2017, 03:42 PM   #101
Dream Crusher
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

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Originally Posted by ty4thDime$ View Post
Absolute ammeter hour going on. Before you go all in you say...

"you have about $10k right Alec?"

Angle or no angle it's absolutely inexcusable, speshly from an experienced player. No-one to blame but yourself here DW.
The player is an amateur though. In fact, most poker players are amateurs, so why wouldn't you expect them to act like an "ammeter" ?

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Originally Posted by ty4thDime$ View Post
You're right, just guess how much the effective stack is when you go all in, makes for a better game for everyone.
If nobody is angling it's very easy to approximate effective stack sizes by looking at chip stacks. Tbh, I don't even understand why this is an angle. This should be covered in the rules. The act of hiding chips in play should be illegal and the player should have to forfeit the chips.
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Old 05-25-2017, 04:33 PM   #102
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

You're all being somewhat ridiculous.

Don't ask for exact counts all the time, if you're about to go all in, the guy looks like he has $10k. If there is any doubt at all then you really should just confirm that your estimate is correct, takes less than 5 seconds, doesn't slow the game down at all, no-one will be bothered as it's personally reasonable thing to ask.

In this instance the conversation goes like this;

" You have about $10k right?"

" No I have about $25k (moves chips forward)"

Whole thing has taken plenty under 10 seconds and a $25k error is avoided.

Let's not have any of this "people should forefit chips" nonsense, too may rules not enough common sense in poker these days.

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The player is an amateur though. In fact, most poker players are amateurs, so why wouldn't you expect them to act like an "ammeter" ?
Obviously not what i meant, if you're a total rookie to the game then absolutely yeah its a forgivable mistake, if you played a fair bit then sorry you just need to know better.

I do feel sorry for him though, I remember doing something similar many years back which cost a fortune, felt like a monster idiot, but never done it since. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me :P
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Old 05-25-2017, 04:51 PM   #103
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

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Originally Posted by Kelvis View Post
How can anybody argue that "he should take back 10k"? It's the floors decision.

If he is going to decide for himself then the other guy is going on monkey tilt if he has KK instead of AT. If he is going to ask whether he wants the 10k to be on the table then the other guy has to reveal information that Alec can use before he calls. If he wants the extra 10k to play what do you think that means, that he wants to torch another 10k with AT? If he says "nah leave it it's fine", is that anything else than a big hand? If he lets the hand play and give back 10k when he wins the pot, that's just dumb because there is no way in hell the other dude would give back 10k when he wins it.

Can anyone who thinks this is a good option explain to me why this would be fair?
Just say, "sorry, I've got another 10K that was hidden from view, please re-decide your action".
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Old 05-25-2017, 05:48 PM   #104
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

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Just say, "sorry, I've got another 10K that was hidden from view, please re-decide your action".
So Alec knows he shoves with a hand if he has 10k less and is going to get information what he does instead now. How is this fair?

Also "please re-decide your action" means Alec is deciding for him. If he doesn't want to change his action at all then he has to either object or give the additional information that he shoves against his actual stack and when it is 10k less.

If any of the players makes a decision in what should happen then someone is going to get an unfair advantage. This is precisely why this should be a floor decision.
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Old 05-25-2017, 05:50 PM   #105
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

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Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
~$10 million imo
Seems about right over the course of like 10 years
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Old 05-25-2017, 06:20 PM   #106
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

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So Alec knows he shoves with a hand if he has 10k less and is going to get information what he does instead now. How is this fair?

Also "please re-decide your action" means Alec is deciding for him. If he doesn't want to change his action at all then he has to either object or give the additional information that he shoves against his actual stack and when it is 10k less.

If any of the players makes a decision in what should happen then someone is going to get an unfair advantage. This is precisely why this should be a floor decision.
Alec wouldn't necessarily know for sure that the guy didn't know his stack but is being as honest as possible by announcing the hidden chips and offering opp to re-decide. If opp says nothing obviously action will proceed with the shove but opp could also fold losing just the $525(or whatever it was). If opp stays silent Alec still wouldn't know for sure if shoving vs the 20K would be for value or now as a bluff. The full stack must always be in play imo, so it's a shove vs the whole stack, a call or a fold. If it's a call that would have some meaning to Alec but would give him the least advantage from his mistake. Is there a more ethical way to proceed?

I just reread your earlier post and I didn't mean to defend the idea of only 10k playing under any circumstances. The full stack must play imo.
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Old 05-25-2017, 07:58 PM   #107
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

It's laughable how many people think this isn't an angle shoot. It's clearly an angle shot - I'd say there's about a 1% chance it was an honest mistake.

I think the correct ruling should be that if Alec calls the all-in, Wolf should be able to decide whether or not the 10k should be included before the cards are flipped. He shouldn't be punished for Alec's angleshot/"mistake", and it'll make Alec think twice about doing this again. I'm a very absent-minded person (if you saw my stack at the casino, you'd very quickly label me a lag), yet I've never had large chips hidden like that. They're always on top of my stack.
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Old 05-25-2017, 09:54 PM   #108
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

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It's laughable how many people think this isn't an angle shoot. It's clearly an angle shot - I'd say there's about a 1% chance it was an honest mistake.
And I think it's laughable how many people such as yourself think that it was an intentional angleshoot rather than an inadvertent error.

The guy plays in high stakes cash games around the world and is invited to some games with whales based on his reputation. So what is more likely:

1. That this was a simple, honest mistake that he tried to rectify immediately by asking his opponent if he had seen his chips; or

2. Knowing that the game was being livestreamed with cameras all around the table and commentators reporting on the action, he chose this particular very public occasion to decide to hide a couple of big denomination chips in order to angleshoot an amateur out of a measly $10k. Furthermore, he did this with ill will and intent, knowing that his reputation would be ruined and it could likely mean that he would lose out on invitations to truly high stakes private games in Macau and other locales.

I don't know about you, but I'll go with Occam's Razor on this one.
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Old 05-25-2017, 09:58 PM   #109
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

Hanlon's razor seems more applicable.
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Old 05-25-2017, 11:16 PM   #110
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

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Originally Posted by DC2LV View Post
And I think it's laughable how many people such as yourself think that it was an intentional angleshoot rather than an inadvertent error.

The guy plays in high stakes cash games around the world and is invited to some games with whales based on his reputation. So what is more likely:

1. That this was a simple, honest mistake that he tried to rectify immediately by asking his opponent if he had seen his chips; or

2. Knowing that the game was being livestreamed with cameras all around the table and commentators reporting on the action, he chose this particular very public occasion to decide to hide a couple of big denomination chips in order to angleshoot an amateur out of a measly $10k. Furthermore, he did this with ill will and intent, knowing that his reputation would be ruined and it could likely mean that he would lose out on invitations to truly high stakes private games in Macau and other locales.

I don't know about you, but I'll go with Occam's Razor on this one.
If he's such a pro it should never be a mistake as it's one of the most basic things. Exception is if it was his first hand and he's still settling in.

To your point in 2. It's irrelevant when half of the population is oblivious and doesn't even consider it an angle.
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Old 05-26-2017, 08:40 AM   #111
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

free life lesson for you all, you'll do better assuming people are angling and looking to protect yourself from it, than you will assuming no one would ever angle.

Enjoy
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Old 05-26-2017, 11:29 AM   #112
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

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Originally Posted by DC2LV View Post
And I think it's laughable how many people such as yourself think that it was an intentional angleshoot rather than an inadvertent error.

The guy plays in high stakes cash games around the world and is invited to some games with whales based on his reputation. So what is more likely:

1. That this was a simple, honest mistake that he tried to rectify immediately by asking his opponent if he had seen his chips; or


2. Knowing that the game was being livestreamed with cameras all around the table and commentators reporting on the action, he chose this particular very public occasion to decide to hide a couple of big denomination chips in order to angleshoot an amateur out of a measly $10k. Furthermore, he did this with ill will and intent, knowing that his reputation would be ruined and it could likely mean that he would lose out on invitations to truly high stakes private games in Macau and other locales.

I don't know about you, but I'll go with Occam's Razor on this one.
He tried to rectify it immediately? More like he tried to exploit it immediately. Alec genuinely believed the guy didn't see the 10k, and instead of asking what he wanted to do, he took advantage of the situation and used that information to help him make the call. Alec took ZERO responsibility for placing those chips in a way that's invisible to the other guy.

I wouldn't say there's a 99% chance he was angleshooting, but I would say there's at least a 50% chance. He's a veteran to live poker and very aware of what's going on at the table. He knows better than to carelessly tuck his large denomination chips behind towers making it impossible for certain players to see them, especially while he's in a hand. THIS is the Occam's Razor.

And if people who have played with him come forward with other instances where he's done this, it would obviously increase the likelihood that this was an intentional angle to 80%+

Last edited by NoExit; 05-26-2017 at 11:39 AM.
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Old 05-26-2017, 11:36 AM   #113
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

I guess I don't care whether this was an intentional angle or not. The rule is that his high denomination chips should be visible, and his were clearly not. There should be some penalty for that, though I'm not sure what it should be. Maybe the severity of the penalty should depend on intent.
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Old 05-26-2017, 11:56 AM   #114
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

This is Alec during the hand. We can't even see his two silver 5k chips in this angle from the cameras. There's no way Wolf who was sitting to his right could see them. Jennifer Tilly, who was the initial raiser, also couldn't see them.



And as soon as Wolf shoves, Alec asks "You got me covered?" to get a read. Wolf said yeah, clearly not being able to see the 5k chips. Then Alec picks up the two 5k chips and asks if he saw those.

This is a DOUBLE STRADDLED pot so it's pretty big, and AQ is strong here. I don't know about you guys, but if I 3bet squeezed in a big pot and the action is on amateurs like Jennifer Tilly and Ivan Wolf, I would be sure to put the large denomination chips out where they could see them unless I was trying to angle.

Last edited by NoExit; 05-26-2017 at 12:19 PM.
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Old 05-26-2017, 12:45 PM   #115
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

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Originally Posted by DC2LV View Post
2. Knowing that the game was being livestreamed with cameras all around the table and commentators reporting on the action, he chose this particular very public occasion to decide to hide a couple of big denomination chips in order to angleshoot an amateur out of a measly $10k. Furthermore, he did this with ill will and intent, knowing that his reputation would be ruined and it could likely mean that he would lose out on invitations to truly high stakes private games in Macau and other locales.
He can't get "caught" because pretty much no matter what there's always reasonable doubt, so it doesn't really matter if there's cameras.
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Old 05-26-2017, 12:46 PM   #116
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

Papi's gettin' a little sloppy
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Old 05-26-2017, 01:08 PM   #117
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

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Originally Posted by WonTr1ckPony View Post
this guys done a bunch of questionable.


Seriously. I still question that JJ call vs Doug Polk.
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Old 05-26-2017, 03:20 PM   #118
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

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Originally Posted by MIB211 View Post
I guess I don't care whether this was an intentional angle or not. The rule is that his high denomination chips should be visible, and his were clearly not. There should be some penalty for that, though I'm not sure what it should be. Maybe the severity of the penalty should depend on intent.
Make the penalty severe enough and then nobody will intentionally try that angle again.

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Seriously. I still question that JJ call vs Doug Polk.
Easy live read, which was probably made based on smell.
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Old 05-26-2017, 05:42 PM   #119
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

if your surgeon removes the wrong organ does it matter if he did it intentionally or not? alec is a pro and should know better. putting the big chips where they cant be seen is a big no-no in live poker. anyone saying wolf should ask how deep alec is in the hand is an idiot. first of all alec isn't even obligated to answer. can the dealer see the chips? no. clearly an angle unintentional or not.
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Old 05-26-2017, 06:18 PM   #120
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

"This guy is crazy like a fox but right now he needs to fold like a wolf."


Thoughts?
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Old 05-26-2017, 07:00 PM   #121
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

Alec looks like a Miami Vice villain in that ballin' outta control attire.

The stone on his necklace is actually a dark spiritual augmentation which gives him clairvoyance.
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Old 05-26-2017, 07:47 PM   #122
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

"if your not sure of the chip stack you should ask"
He was sure then after he shoved all in alec pulled two 5k chips out of his arse and asked did you not see my chips all along.
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Old 05-27-2017, 02:24 AM   #123
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

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You think the chips changed location instantly when he saw AQo? And that they still wouldn't have been there postflop? jfc. This isn't about him having AQo and angling to get someone to put it in preflop.
Yeah my bad, didn't think my question through.
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Old 05-27-2017, 06:45 AM   #124
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

even if it was a mistake (and i highly doubt it), his chips were hidden, which is against the rules. the way he acted after he got shoved on makes it pretty obvious what kind of a person he is. clearly he tries to move his big chips in front without anyone noticing how ridiculously hidden they were.

so, can anyone with 100% confidence claim that he was planning to angle like that? nah. chances are high though. more importantly though, its very evident that if not having planned this angle all along, he CLEARLY tries to hide the fact that his chips were hidden.

you simply can not call it an honest mistake the way he tries to move his big chips to the front after shoved on. its either an angle from the beginning, or a scumbag move of trying to hide the fact that his chips were completely hidden.
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Old 05-27-2017, 09:08 AM   #125
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

+1 Waited for the action to fold to him and then tried to calmly move the chips into view as if they'd been there the whole time.

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