I've been following this whole thing since the Doug Polk video and I've had a lot of enjoyment from lurking this thread and some of the responses to Torreli on his twitter account. I didn't really expect Torelli to respond anymore, so I was pretty surprised when late last night a response was suddenly posted online. I got a bit excited and then I got kind of annoyed.

The main angle Torelli seems to go for is that Doug Polk was deceitful with his video editing. I really don't think that this is a relevant point to make. As long as I've been aware of Doug Polk's Youtube channel, I've been aware of the fact that the guy likes to bait clicks and stir **** up. That doesnt change the fact that Torelli was deceitful during this hand. Just because Polk tried to increase the popularity of his channel by editing his video in a certain way doesnt mean that Torelli wasnt being dishonest during the hand.

Torelli acts like he did actually try to find a solution but because of Wolf's reluctance this didnt happen. This point isnt really a fair one to make because:

1. Wolf making it clear that he wants the all-in to be 10k lighter or not is a huge tell and he's not guaranteed that whatever he proposes is automatically agreed on.
2. Torelli never suggests any solutions, he merely keeps mentioning that he wants everyone to be happy and that he doesnt know what to do.

The main thing that really makes me think that Torelli didnt want to make a deal can be seen about 4 minutes into the hand. Torelli says that he's not sure wether making a deal is allowed. The floor responds that it's between him and Wolf. Instead of accepting that as a ruling that it is allowed to make a deal, Torelli decides to ask Gusak what he thinks about it. If he's so eager to find a solution, why is he now trying to complicate things by getting others involved?

Last, but definitely not least, is the fact that Torelli doesnt even bring up the accusation of him going north. I highly doubt that he wasnt aware of this accusation. It's been a month and it's been mentioned nearly everywhere.

Yeah, it can both be true that

- Polk engages in clickbait and deceitful editing to promote his brand and social media channels, and
- Torelli was in the wrong for going north, purposely(?) hiding his big chips, and then trying to weasel a deal for mostly his own benefit

I think it was a mistake for his video to be as much of an attack on Polk as it was a general defense of himself. This wasn't a he said / she said situation where the incident was only witnessed by the two of them.

In a time when a youtube channel has more subscribers than all the poker schools combined focusing your fans to hate and unsubscribe the only channel that provides real educational content is great because this way NL holdem will not die too soon

Why did Alec include that random tweet in the video? He totally misunderstood what it contained anyway. He thought it suggested the hand should've been dead. It didn't. It meant the chips shouldn't play, not the players/hand.

From the timestamps someone posted earlier:

Because Alec 'Chip Dump' Torelli is such a shining pillar of community ldo.

*******************************************

Parts with his wife were ****ing cringy.

Is Doug Polk the only saint left in poker?

No, cause Polk rapes Neemes' phrase "rather favourable"
as in hey i like that phrase, but i can also use it to keep u down as in "im the biggest streamer, ur a nice guy, but u are and stay beneath me and i can use this little catchy phrase of urs just to do exactly that"

This dispute needs a meme.

i think egoist ****s gate has a nice ring to it

really trying to make polk look like the bad guy lol

Vid is unwatchable. Could only watch one minute.

Don't worry. I'm sure Polk will do his own cut

I have followed this minidrama from the start and here is my point of view about what has happened.

1) Torelli was stuck and went north which is unethical and extremely silly thing to do on a televised game, especially from a guy who has side income from poker, ie youtube channel, coaching, books etc. But, honestly, when i am stuck big, my judgement can be clouded as well and i remember doing silly things i regretted later: spewing my stack, getting agitated with someone about a hand, taking it personally etc. It's stupid and wrong, but i can understand, how this can happen.

2) Because he went north, he had his big chips hidden at first, so it wouldn't be so obvious. Here is where i feel it gets really important: in the hand itself, i don't think there is an angleshoot. It started kinda innocently, with him squeezing AQo being over 400bbs deep, i mean, you don't really expect or plan to play this hand for stacks preflop at this depth, right?

And really, how comfortable are you calling it off when someone shoves on you being this deep? I can certainly see it being an angleshoot, if he had QQ+. But, seriously, you have AQo with 450bbs and you are being shoved on by not a random hand. Wolf can have a lot of pairs in his range and while he certainly has less combos of QQ+ himself, it certainly plausible that he smooth called with a big pair to trap and now backraise shoving vs what he thinks is a 10kish stack, because he can't really 4bet and not shove after Torelli made it almost 3k w/o looking insanely strong. He can have AK as well. So, to suggest that Alec is trying to play for a bigger stack with AQo is wrong imo. I know i personally would want to have a smaller stack in this case.

So, the main issue is going north, not the so called angleshoot and Torelli did apologize many time both during the actual hand and now for the improper stacking of his chips. And i did see him try to make it right by Wolf several times during the hand, which wasn't shown initially in the edited broadcast. And he did show the floor correctly where the chips were located during the shove and accepted the blame.

3) Wolf himself comes out kinda cringeworthy in this story. Not once he said anything about wanting to play for less. I understand that it could have given away the weakness of his hand, but if he had a monster and wanted to induce a call, i think he could have also said, let's play for 10k less. Since it was Torelli's fault for not putting the big chips in front, i am sure he would have agreed either way, either because he was feeling guilty or not wanting to appear malicious on TV.

He didn't say anything bad or in fact barely anything at all after the hand or in months that followed, but all of the sudden after it went viral, he started whining, making rap videos, harassing Torelli's social media account. It's embarrassing. Man up, bro. You were behaving like a good humble dude during the hand, not saying a bad word, when Torelli's offered you a piece in the future action, even offering to speak to him later about it and now, almost a year later, you are this fierce internet warrior/hater?

In my opinion, out of all the 3, he comes out the worst from this issue.

4) The offer to invest. I personally see nothing wrong with that. The way Wolf presented it before, was that Torelli came up to him after the game and made this shady offer to buy a piece of him later on as some form of compensation. Now, as it turns out, he said it openly during the game and even got a positive reaction from the table.

Torelli is a winning cash game player. If he would offer action without markup, it's for sure a +EV offer that would make money in the long run. What is wrong with that? I feel, giving Wolf 10k back is unfair. He didn't mention it once during negotiations, only starting to whine about it as he lost the hand. And he could have won the allin. Would he give Torelli money back then?

The best he can hope for is to get his equity back out of the extra 10k, which would be fair, but i didn't see this mentioned somewhere (perhaps i missed it).

Anyway, the offer the buy action at face value, seems like a decent form of compensation. And if you have a problem with it, say it on the spot, don't wait a year to be upset about it.

5) Doug's video. Well, we all know that Doug is trying to enhance his brand and sometimes he is playing it kinda dirty with clickbates and bombastic titles. It feels like he did edit the footage to make Torelli look worse in all this, but all in all, that is kinda what i expect from his videos, it's cheap entertainment designed to increase the number of subscribers, he does give good poker analysis for free in most of his videos, so my opinion of him hasn't really changed.

Also, he seems to be one of the only ones not to be all PC about the burning issues (Dwan, Negreanu etc) and mostly speaks his mind honestly, so kudos for that.

So, to sum it up:

Torelli did go north, but he didn't angleshoot during the hand. Perhaps should have offered Wolf his equity of the extra 10k back, but did try to make it right.

Wolf is cringeworthy. Either react on the spot or let it go. Don't wait for a year to become angry, it's not like you were raped and had to mentally block the entire incident from your mind only to have it resurface a year later. You made a light shove and you lost a hand. Next.
Oh, and ask how much someone is playing before shoving next time.

Doug likes to get involved and blow up some stories, partly because he is honest, partly to increase the value of his brand. He wasn't particularly out of line here.

Anyone saying that Wolf could have proposed to play for 10k less does understand that this gives away every last bit about his hand right? The same goes for Torelli actually. During this hand there is not much both players can actually propose without getting themselves screwed over. Unfortunately nobody at the table gave a damn. Actually Alec's point about Wolf having extra fold equity is true. In this case if Alec proposes to take 10k back Wolf knows he is going to get snapped.

There is not much both players can do except after the hand. Wolf could (should) have been more careful and to be honest I don't see this being an angle during the hand. The problem is the adding chips and having to hide them for a while which isn't an angle, it is against the rules. Alec did not address this at all in a 35 minute video that was basically a dick swinging contest with Polk.

If Alec really wanted to do right by Wolf and truly wanted no blood he would've just said to the floor/Wolf:
"My chips were hidden. He reasonably thought he was shoving for 10k less so let's just play for 10k less, seeing as Gusak (?) has no problem with it."
Wolf could then keep his mouth shut without giving away his hand, floor could make the ruling and stick with it as Keith urged him and situation would be resolved nice and easy.

Alec droned on for 35 minutes while basically repeating the same couple points the whole time.
Doug edited out Alec's machiavellian manipulation of the situation so that Alec could come out of it with a clear reputation (didn't pan out) and the extra 10k in his pocket. Alec should be thanking Doug for editing this out.
Alec still doesn't get offering Wolf action is a massive piss take and a **** you to Wolf. He's actually proud of it and wanted it to be made clear. Says a lot about Alec.

Why, as soon as Wolf shoved, did Alec immediately start twiddling with his 2 silver chips? It's almost as if he knew they were hidden and wanted to reveal them at that very moment.

Practically waving them in his face.

His chips were silver, the thread is gold though.

Dougs video and its intent was hardly to defend torelli. It was to bury him and then throw lots more dirt on. Doug knows an easy target when he sees one. If Doug ever wrongs someone MORE popular than him (Ivey or Galfond) we will have peak popcorn eating.

Allowed him to get a good read and make a tough call, this is a great point.

I don't see the hand where he said he won the orange chips that hid the silver chips? Seems like those Orange were there for some time? Do you have footage of the last hand he won prior to hand in question?

He was lying. In his defense, he needed to lie in order to prevent getting caught cheating.

05:09:52 - This is the last hand Torelli wins before the hand in question. In the PNIA video we see him try to justify himself to the floor by saying that he had just won a hand and put those orange chips in the way of his silvers as a result of it. But this was a small pot that netted him 0 orange chips, and also left his orange stack exactly where it had already been. That is, in front of his silver chips.

Just watched Alec's response video. I think there are three different issues at play, and they should be addressed separately and without any attempts at drawing moral equivalencies. The issues are:

1. Alec going North
2. The hand between Alec and Wolf
3. Doug Polk's ethical responsibilities as a poker news reporter


Alec going North
The video evidence combined with Alec completely ignoring the accusation makes it pretty clear that Alec went North. If Alec disputes this he should speak up immediately. Actually, he should address it immediately regardless of whether he disputes it or not- At this point, it is definitely the elephant in the room.

I've never seen or participated in a discussion about going North, so I'm not totally sure how I feel about it. My first impression is that its a relatively minor yet clearly intentional breaking of the rules- if I had to draw a comparison, maybe something like a tournament player being moved to a new table, seeing they are about to be the BB, and intentionally walking slowly so as to arrive after the cards have been dealt. Its scummy, its frowned upon, its DEFINITELY CHEATING...but at the same time, its not something that we would ostracize someone from the community for.

What would have actually happened if Alec had been caught going North? Would it have been a simple reprimand or kicked off the show? Alec should probably have to face whatever consequences he would've had to face if he got caught. Moreover, Alec going North was the impetus for all of this and our society is often results oriented in their judgment(i.e. If you drive drunk and hit someone, your punishment will be way worse if that person dies).

I think that if Alec wants to make things right, this would be optimal:

-Address the issue clearly and honestly
-Self-enforce whatever the penalty would have been had the floorman caught him going North
-Since this was the root cause of everything, donate the $10k to the charity of Wolf's choice. Its definitely a harsh penalty for going North, but results oriented judgment is how our society works and it would be a really good gesture on Alec's part.



The hand between Alec and Wolf
Imo its really silly to pretend you can know Alec's or Wolf's true motivations for their actions during the hand. They are both seasoned professionals with tons of practice at hiding their emotions/intent while in the middle of a high stakes poker hand. With that said, my best read on the situation is as follows....

If you were to only look at a transcript of the words spoken during the dispute, I think Alec would appear blameless. It really does appear that hes trying to brainstorm possible solutions and listen to feedback from anyone willing to give it. Moreover, the (lack of) strength of his hand combined with the amount of time he took to call very strongly indicate that he did not believe he was benefitting from his full stack being in play.

But despite this, I agree with the consensus that something seems "off" about Alec's behavior during the hand. I'm not sure if its his use of words like "probably", "definitely", "obviously" or his mannerisms or what....but when I pay attention to this more than the actual words being said, I don't get the same feeling about Alec.

My best guess is that these sketchy mannerisms are due to the fact that Alec knew all along that he did go North. And now they're ****ing Alec over because hes being accused of something worse which he is innocent of, yet he has chosen to not come clean about going North so hes left with no explanation for the sketchy mannerisms.

As for Wolf, man I really have no idea what his intent/thought process was after he fully realized the situation he was in. I can buy the notion that he was acting in his own self-interest, saying nothing because he both wanted the full bet to be in play(for fold equity) and to not give off any reads. And therefore, when the hand is over and he then starts speaking up about it- this is kinda scummy since he clearly wanted the full bet to stand before seeing the result. Or I can buy the notion that he found himself in a super weird situation, he didn't really know what to think, he didn't want to give off any tells....so he just froze up and didn't talk much until the hand was over.

Basically I don't think theres enough proof to cast blame here. Its all speculation, and considering the strange nature of the situation I would give both players the benefit of the doubt.


Doug Polk's ethical responsibilities as a poker news reporter
Much as Alec completely ignored the going North allegation, Doug's twitter response completely ignored this aspect(although its worth noting that Alec had over a month to respond while its only been a day for Doug, so maybe we should give him some time to prepare a statement). And my opinion on this is the exact same as my opinion on Alec going North: I would like to see a statement from him before truly deciding, but based upon evidence at hand it certainly seems as if Doug is guilty. It appears as if Doug edited his video in a way so as to slightly yet intentionally mislead his viewers, and the most natural explanation for this is that he did it because he believed it would result in more clicks on his YouTube channel.

At first, this might sound like a relatively minor issue. Tons of TMZ-style news outlets exist and most of the readers know that their reporting is sensationalized. However, I think there are two factors which combine to make Doug's videos a unique situation: One is the importance of reputation in our industry, and the second is the perception of Doug.

Most people are well aware of the importance of reputation in poker, so I won't write much on that. The perception of Doug, though, is a factor which should be discussed. Imagine if the same company that ran TMZ also ran Time magazine. And imagine if they cross-advertised through each other, often times putting out content which contained elements of both. Thats kinda what Doug is doing. Hes a heads-up boss who constantly preaches a theoretical and unemotional approach to the game, he runs a coaching site, and he recently won the biggest tournament of the year....and then on the side he does sensationalistic poker reporting with some questionable journalistic integrity.

I think that if Doug wants to make things right, this would be optimal:

-Address the issue clearly and honestly
-Separate and clearly distinguish your two brands(or choose one over the other). If you want to have a TMZ-esque program where you have over-the-top video titles, questionable impartiality, and slanderous gossip then don't include poker strategy, mentions of your coaching site, or references to your own poker talent/accomplishments in those videos.
-Apologize to Alec publicly. It isn't about whether Alec is guilty; Its about the fact that he deserves a fair trial in the court of public opinion and your actions indicate that you valued the growth of your YouTube channel over providing him with that. His guilt can and should be a separate conversation.
-Estimate what you've profited from Alec-related videos(youtube ads + people who purchased UpSwing from a link in the description of that video + future profitability from increased brand recognition) and donate it to the charity of Alec's choice. Similar to my request for Alec to do this, I think it would go a long way in regards to goodwill from the community. I mean, you're STILL profiting every time someone clicks on your videos so all this increased attention is just making you more money, and that can't sit well in the eyes of a lot of your viewers given the new information we now have regarding your selective editing.

Objects, whether it be chips or table decor, tend to shift around when Alec is in the room. Exhibit A and B: Notice how the plant, vase, and rock candle holder shift between scenes from his video around the 21:44 and 22:54 marks:





Possible reasons these objects were moved:

1. Alec went north... yet again. He wanted to add chips into his video without anyone noticing and hid them on the table behind the vase. Maybe he has the "I'll go north whenever I want to" mentality now and plans make a point to hide chips wherever he goes, no matter what he's doing. If this is the case, he should make sure to place the objects hiding the chips back in their exact location, but then again he's been known to miscalculate where things were placed originally... maybe he tried?

2. Alec hired a production team to help him shoot the video, which would include a stylist. As **** kept pouring out of Alec's mouth the stylist on set was tasked with trying to at least make the room they were in pleasant and presentable. With the lack of props in the scene she was forced to make only small adjustments to the table decor thus failing in her attempt. Maybe she was fired on set... Maybe she's gone missing since the filming of this video. It's all pure speculation but I know if Alec was involved in her disappearance no one is finding her body, who knows what it's behind.

3. Alec took 4 weeks to make this video so it's not surprising he would take the time in between each shot to make sure everything looked perfect. With his entire brand on the line he really couldn't risk anything in his surroundings looking off or too distracting... including his new haircut?


At least it matches his house slippers.

Someone would have said "the table max is [whatever it was], you can't add those chips".