Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting
05-21-2017
, 07:04 PM
05-21-2017
, 07:13 PM
Interesting. Big chips should certainly be visible. Here's a picture of the table right after Torelli reraised
Certainly they aren't in the proper spot, but I'm not familiar enough with the rules to know what should happen here.
Whether the rules protect him or not, however, I think Daniel Wolf should at least have some responsibility to know the stack of his opponent.
If I was playing against say, an older amateur who might not know the rule, I'd be pretty uncomfortable not paying him the extra 10, as there is certainly some responsibility to know how much your opponents are playing.
If the 5k chips were rotated say 80 degrees around the orange chips and thus a bit more visible, I'd say that it would be 100% on Mr. Wolf
In this spot, however, it appears as if no one other than the 1 and 7 seat are able to see the 5k chips
Certainly they aren't in the proper spot, but I'm not familiar enough with the rules to know what should happen here.
Whether the rules protect him or not, however, I think Daniel Wolf should at least have some responsibility to know the stack of his opponent.
If I was playing against say, an older amateur who might not know the rule, I'd be pretty uncomfortable not paying him the extra 10, as there is certainly some responsibility to know how much your opponents are playing.
If the 5k chips were rotated say 80 degrees around the orange chips and thus a bit more visible, I'd say that it would be 100% on Mr. Wolf
In this spot, however, it appears as if no one other than the 1 and 7 seat are able to see the 5k chips
05-21-2017
, 07:50 PM
05-22-2017
, 12:48 AM
05-22-2017
, 02:26 AM
Yeah... that's not good.
I can't assume it's intentional but having large chips hidden that perfectly is a complete bonehead move for a live pro at any level.
If I was the floor I would rule the 10k is not in play. But the floor in this clip doesn't see where the chips were. He might presume they are only hard to see, not impossible. In which case, ruling that it is Wolf's responsibility would be reasonable.
Looks like a third party at the table called for the floor promptly which is good. It's not fair to Wolf if he has to protest on his own behalf. Players should always be proactive when they see a situation arise that is likely to require a ruling, because the earlier a verdict is made the easier it is sorted. Unfortunately he was stunned and reacted without thinking, giving up his hand anyway. I wish the other players had explained just how badly his stack was arranged, it's clear the floor did not realize it.
I think in Alec's shoes, the ethical thing to do is offer not to play the 10k before making a decision. Yes he's at a disadvantage this way. But he has to take some responsibility for creating the situation. (Side effect of honesty -- It protects you. If Wolf was in fact angling, he'd react strangely to this offer.)
In Wolf's shoes, I would calmly state that I did not know he had the large chips and to call the floor. I would explain how the chips were arranged making the 5k chips invisible. And then I would protest no more, even if I was ruled against and did not like it, because it would not change the floor's mind but it would help Alec make his call.
At least that's what I'd like to say, maybe in the heat of the moment I don't
Can't blame him for the way he reacted at all, only pointing out the most +EV line.
Normally when going all in I will ask if the raiser has any large chips hidden, but from his angle I probably wouldn't have. The way it is arranged, it looks like his entire stack is visible. I can't understate how stupid that is if accidental.
I can't assume it's intentional but having large chips hidden that perfectly is a complete bonehead move for a live pro at any level.
If I was the floor I would rule the 10k is not in play. But the floor in this clip doesn't see where the chips were. He might presume they are only hard to see, not impossible. In which case, ruling that it is Wolf's responsibility would be reasonable.
Looks like a third party at the table called for the floor promptly which is good. It's not fair to Wolf if he has to protest on his own behalf. Players should always be proactive when they see a situation arise that is likely to require a ruling, because the earlier a verdict is made the easier it is sorted. Unfortunately he was stunned and reacted without thinking, giving up his hand anyway. I wish the other players had explained just how badly his stack was arranged, it's clear the floor did not realize it.
I think in Alec's shoes, the ethical thing to do is offer not to play the 10k before making a decision. Yes he's at a disadvantage this way. But he has to take some responsibility for creating the situation. (Side effect of honesty -- It protects you. If Wolf was in fact angling, he'd react strangely to this offer.)
In Wolf's shoes, I would calmly state that I did not know he had the large chips and to call the floor. I would explain how the chips were arranged making the 5k chips invisible. And then I would protest no more, even if I was ruled against and did not like it, because it would not change the floor's mind but it would help Alec make his call.
At least that's what I'd like to say, maybe in the heat of the moment I don't
Can't blame him for the way he reacted at all, only pointing out the most +EV line.Normally when going all in I will ask if the raiser has any large chips hidden, but from his angle I probably wouldn't have. The way it is arranged, it looks like his entire stack is visible. I can't understate how stupid that is if accidental.
Last edited by DK Barrel; 05-22-2017 at 02:31 AM.
05-22-2017
, 06:10 AM
