Absolutely. And, btw sage, whether you or anyone else would do it in certain circumstances, doesn't change what it is, just speaks to what kind of person you or others are.


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request to change tittle thread once more

Alec Torelli Caught Cheating In Televised Game

Thought this was cool



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What if you were the last one off the plane?

You can't raise your hand to this. This isn't a screw up like oh I got angry and I took it too far, this is a premeditated act, a total farce of an acting job, with some faux indignity at how he's being treated.

Should he have owned up to it? I guess. But it's really inconsistent with who he is.

I haven't and wouldn't do it, I play the game fair.

I still think it's an angle, at the top end of the worst angles. Pretty close to cheating yes, but I think cheating is things like someone marking cards, collusion, having a spectator looking at opponents' cards and signalling them. AT found an extreme loophole which he exploited.

Not necessarily people ITT, but there's a certain amount of hypocrisy among players because so many do cheating/unethical stuff (mainly on line) but will also crucify AT for this angle. His angle was bad and wrong. It makes him a dirty player, that's all. One of very many in the poker world.

The game of poker is pretty dirty overall. Assume the worst about all opponents, until proven otherwise.

It's not a loophole. The rules clearly state that you cannot hide big chips, cannot go north. Stop making excuses that it's not cheating.

If this were a criminal case, Torelli would be accused of fraud and deception, and would be convicted on the basis of the film evidence.

I just hope in your next live game someone does the Torelli magic trick against you, then we'd find out if you really believe this crap of yours that his smuggling a $5000 chip into a game, and lying and misleading the table about it is just an angle rather than blatant fraud.

Pokernews should write about this incident.

Pokernews don't write about 'incidents'.

If everyone let one more person off the plane first, no one would ever get off the plane.

This thread needs to get bumped for a few years, just like the legendary Doug Lee toolbox thread.

In some instances there is a subtle difference between breaking the rules and cheating. Breaking the rules, which AT did, in most sports/games usually has a penalty associated with it, however in some instances the penalty is less than the potential gain or non existent.

When the penalty is not harsh enough or doesn't exist then a loophole exists that a player can take advantage of.

In football (soccer) which in many ways is administered in as amateurish a way as poker, an outfield player can deliberately hand ball the ball off the goal line in the last minute of a match with his team leading 1 - 0 giving himself a red card and the opponents a penalty which they have ~25% chance of missing. It is blindingly obvious that this is a loophole in the rules and that a goal should automatically be awarded, as in Rugby Union (a try), Rugby League and a few other sports.

AT took advantage of a loophole because the hiding of chips is not properly policed in a game, the dealer does do where possible, but as far as I am aware there is no penalty for hiding chips. If a player caught hiding chips in a cash game was fined 20% of their stack or 15 BBs or something like that then the loophole would be virtually closed. Similarly if it were possible to impose retrospective fines and or playing bans when the offense is later discovered it also closes the loophole.

The fact is that the floor does not go around looking at all stacks and fining players hiding chips, nor impose any sort of other penalties and as we saw in the video clip even when there is a suspicion that chips were being hidden the floor defaults to the old "it's a players responsibility to know their opponent's stack size" ruling.

So IMO AT did not cheat, he broke the rules, and because the rule in question is neither policed, enforced or penalised in an adequate way it is a loophole.

I am on the look out for anglers all the time when I play and aware that they can get away with angling without punishment for it because the enforcement of rules and the punishment for breaking them is so weak.

'So IMO AT did not cheat, he broke the rules, and because the rule in question is neither policed, enforced or penalised in an adequate way it is a loophole.' SageDonkey

Breaking the rules DELIBERATELY is, err, CHEATING isn't it? Nothing to do with whether there is punishment or not.

Murdering people is also a neat loophole because, while technically against the law, it is poorly policed in rural areas and inadequately penalized in Canada.

No further evidence needed. This is not a knowledgeable donkey, simply a dumb @zz.

You can call it flat out cheating if you like, but AT semi hid his chips as some opponents, not many, could see them and others couldn't. He then exploited the weakness/lack of enforcement/punishment that exists and the tendency for the floor to side against the angled player. He is clearly an expert at identifying grey areas.

The problem with the outcry over AT's angle (cheating if you like) and all other forms of cheating and unfairness by players and by poker operators is that no-one ever does anything about it apart from complain.

If players really want to make the game better and so that it doesn't still sometimes resemble a seedy, underworld vice then big changes need making, not just people typing words moaning about it. If people like AT *didn't* angle I would be shocked, because they are being allowed to easily get away with it.

What poker rooms, live or on line have banned him from playing because of this incident?

What exactly do you expect us to do as players, fans, observers, etc.? All we really can do is publicly shame them, and social pressure is for the most part a fairly effective deterrent.

I agree that actual authorities seem to be way too soft on players that pull this ****, especially repeat offenders.

Exposing this incident to as many people as possible is the only real legitimate thing that can be done here. It happened over a year ago. Unless you have a time machine that is. Go back and lynch the relevant floor staff.

The hope is his rep will be (further) tarnished / hurt and this will impact his bottom line. PNIA banning him from future appearances is within the realm of possibilities, but you expect other poker rooms to ban him based on this incident that didn't occur at their properties?? Come on.

Or maybe if 99.9% of the poker world accepted it as cheating plain and simple (instead of pussy-footing around it and finding 'loopholes' in the logic) there would be a sea-change in how it is policed/penalised/etc? Starting perhaps with you accepting that deliberately breaking the rules is cheating and not obfuscating the problem with things that aren't relevant to the main argument?

Not surprising you know this guy; you're both dou------.

Why does it have to be called cheating in order for there to be changed in how it's policed or penalized?

I'd call what he did angling too. Doesn't mean I don't think he shouldn't be punished or isn't a POS. If some normie wanted to call this cheating I'd be fine with that, but cheating means something different in the gambling world.

To me I guess it's like the 'I don't know how to define it, but I know it when I see it' definition for porn. For me it comes down to this: if you were warning a friend who didn't know who Alex was, which word would help your friend the most? There will be a lot of overlap, but angler would best defend against the crap he's most likely to pull

SageDonkey itt telling us that "just typing words" is a waste of time.

Yes I think it is a possibility to ban (temp ban most likely) him from other properties. When a sportsman/woman is banned for offenses they are usually banned from competition everywhere, not just from the location/competition where the offense took place.

Okay, we can argue language semantics, what he did was clearly wrong. I am delving into why it will continue to happen..... a weakness in the way the game is run and administrated, meaning that angling for those with no scruples is a part of their strategy and livelihood.

I know of him, I don't know him personally. Incidentally, I recently told someone who does know him well about the "big hand" angle and he was shocked and said he hadn't noticed it. I saw him do it in about 1 in 3 hands in 2 separate months apart comps I played against him in.

I am not a douche or a cheat, but yes I am putting forward a form of defense for a likely guilty party in AT, the defense being that he is being allowed to angle without penalty so as players we should look at the way the game is run and not just those who take advantage of its weaknesses (loopholes).