Oops, meant "until" he loses all...

yoga pic is ****ing sensational

has he even talked about this incident the least bit?

look at his eyes in the end during the interview. the man is a psychopath and dead inside

Not a joke at all. Every perp I know was caught by players (sometimes located at other tables) and never by an eye in the sky. Apparently police are called if the amount is $500+. I'm guessing some perps knew this because $400 was a common amount stolen. One of the perps was hovering around my T/20 game like a month after his incident. Whether or not charges are pressed is the victim's decision.

You can steal $400 at your casino and they won't call the police. That is incredible lol.

Talk about freerolling

I've had this conversation with a number of players who fall into the camp of believing angle shooting isn't cheating and therefore it's no different than any of the other meta-game tactics, such as psychology/table talk. Some with straight faces even compare angles to bluffing or check raising. However, when I've spoken to floors about guys angling many have said should a player obviously angle shoot there are rules they are allowed to invoke (spirit of the game type, I guess) where they can punish them for their actions. Also, seen them do it in cash games and tournaments. That means angling is still cheating just many times there isn't an explicit rule for their nonsense. So, anybody suggesting an angle shooter is just pushing an edge or exploiting a loophole is being too generous. Angle shooting is cheating... often, it's just harder to prove. Pet peeve of mine that people try to cast it as, or accept it as, being in a gray area. It's not. Defining and proving an angle shoot can be within the gray area, but when it's done it's cheating.

As far as Torelli is concerned in my opinion whether or not he intends to angle shoot here is irrelevant. He's played enough to know this is an angle shoot. It's reasonable to infer such knowledge indicates he had to be angling, that said even if we give him benefit of the doubt and he just spaced out when setting up his chips, it's such an egregious example intent doesn't matter here. You can cheat without intending to. His reactions and statements don't help his cause either.

Exactly.

Him going along with the ruling when he very well knew his big chips weren't visible, just a greedy move.

what torelli didnt wasn't angle shooting its cheating. angle shooting is not something i would do but it is not cheating. an angle shot is something like saying you are playing the hand blind when in actuality you have seen your cards. or something along those lines.

whether its a written rule or an unwritten rule the rule is in all poker games that your high denomination chips have to be clearly visible, in front or on top of your stack. torelli had them hidden behind three stacks which is clearly a violation of the rule and therefore cheating. torelli is a total scumbag cheater. no excusing it.

Holy ****....Go check out Dougs new video on this thing......good stuff.

Doug Polk weighs in on the controversy:

Doug did an excellent job with this video.

There's some previously unaired footage in that video you should find interesting.

Alec straight cheated that guy out of his money. Worse then an angle imo

I've only played live poker a handful of times and I've only hid my cards once on accident. I had a chip castle that covered my cards. The dealer ruled that I had to check down my hand so I lost money (I had a flush).

I NEVER hid bigger denomination chips though. I always placed them on the top or in front of my stack so that they were clearly visible.

I feel like Alec Torelli has been playing live poker way too long to coincidentally not realize his biggest chips were hidden. The least he could do is offer to not put the hidden chips in the pot.

Scumbag = confirmed.
----

*EDIT* Now that I think about it, usually myself or someone else at the table is usually good at telling people that they're chips are "dirty" (mixing chips in stacks) or to put their hidden chips up front. So that this doesn't happen in the first place. That way it saves everyone time. More hands to be seen & more rake for the casino... everyone wins!

Before:

Where Alec Torelli had his chips during the hand, including while Wolf was in the tank about what to do with ATo. Alec didn't bother to make those 5k chips visible while Wolf was tanking, and let him shove.

After:

Right after Wolf shoved.

"I had my chips right there...He misread my stack."

-Alec Torelli, when the floor comes over to make a ruling

This is the same response i had posted on my twitter (wolf_clarence) in response to Doug's video.

With the recent opinions that have surfaced since this hand has aired, I’ve decided to write this in response and inform people of the conversation that i had with Alec after the game. I obviously have seen Doug’s video and i appreciate the fact that Doug approaches the situation as a professional and without biased opinions.


I will jump straight to the point in the hand where I decided to 4bet jam all in and Alec was tanking. In the past when talking about this scenario, i would include and show pictures of how his stack looked from my vantage point but Doug did a great job displaying all of that for me. I would like to note though that even the TV graphics were incorrect and seems as though not a single person on set knew of those chips. Obviously the hand was edited and shortened for tv purposes (Altho the original live stream is still on twitch and i was actually surprised that they aired this hand but we’ve come to learn that PNIA favors controversy). I had eyed Alec's stacks down and could see all his orange in front and so I (mistakenly) assumed he had roughly $16,000. Comments like 'he just jammed without even thinking why he was doing what he was' is false. But that is not the point of this debate. This entire discussion is whether or not Alec was angling. And here are some of my opinions on why it could have been:

1. Alec has been playing high stakes for years. Making constant videos in front of hotel fountains and talking underneath seagulls next to the ocean. Having your large chips out front for any high stakes player is second nature.
2. The max buy in for this game is $20,000. As far as I know, Alec reloaded with the silver chips going over the table max. (I could go back and watch the entire footage to see when exactly he puts them on, but he was losing constantly in the game leading me to believe that he went north).
3. Alec had played on PNIA numerous times. Whenever you add chips on you are told to tell the producers so that they can update chip counts. If he was adding on going north, of course he would not notify them.
4. Alec was getting gaped in the game. Going north without telling anyone is a common pickle chasing technique.
5. Begin to add these up and think of the odds - a LONG TIME HIGH STAKES PLAYER ON POKER NIGHT IN AMERICA NOT ONLY DOESN'T TELL PRODUCERS THAT HES ADDING CHIPS ON, BUT HE THEN FORGETS TO PUT THEM OUT IN FRONT ALL WHILE BEING STUCK IN THE GAME.

Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's rain...

Now back to the hand. Alec could tell that my reaction was sincere (sorry everyone, it was my first time bluffing for $26,000 and I got a little nervous). While he begins to act like we could possibly work out a deal during the hand, two other players at the table kept interrupting. Basically saying that the chips are on the table and so they're in play and repeatedly tried calling the clock (there wasn't much time left in the game and they were stuck and wanted to get as many hands in as they could) to get the hand over with.

At one point, Alec says something like 'oh I know I'm calling if it was for $16,000 I have to think about this tho.' I remember when he said that looking at me to try and get a reaction.

Anyways, with a second or two left on the clock he calls and goes on to make a YouTube video where he slightly changes the situation making it sound like everyone else at the table was super drunk and stuck when he was in fact stuck (I believe) the most.

I can understand each side of the argument- that in the end it is the players responsibility to always know how much a player has in front of them. I've learned from this hand and as much as it sucked, I did not have hatred towards Alec at this exact point in time. I still do not regret my decision to jam (as much as that makes you cringe Doug. Deeb once said never to drop out of school to play poker full time unless you live in Pittsburgh. Plays like this must be why) but instead only regret my reaction (even started a trend and other top players in the world took a page from my book...at least you won your disaster Cate).

After the hand Alec acts very cordial. Telling me to talk to him after the show that maybe we can work something out. Keep this in mind - HE asked ME to talk to HIM after the show to potentially work out a DEAL.

I will preface the conversation that we had with a few facts about myself. I am a very honest person and try to treat others the same as I would want them to treat me. Even Doug said i was way too nice in this spot! While these examples are at lower stakes, in my opinion, it is the principle that matters and I do not play these high of stakes often enough to have situations like this surface.

In a PLO game, a player and I had got all in on the turn and when the river hit he tabled his hand and I pushed my hand towards the dealer. The dealer counted his stack, and I counted out the same to pay him. This all took around maybe 45 seconds or so. After I pushed my chips forward I had realized that I had misread my hand. I retrieve it and ask the dealer 'my hand was never in the muck correct?'. He agrees that it is was not. I quickly tell the player don't worry I have you beat, but if my hand is live, im just going to split the pot with you. I didn't know this person. I had just met him during this session and felt bad about my accidental super slow roll. It was only a total pot of about $1,500 but as I said, I think the principle is very important in this case.

When people make sincere accidents at the table I usually give them the benefit of the doubt. Without getting into too much detail, I've had spots on the river where I table my hand and a player misreads it and they muck the winner. I again chopped the pot with them. In a home game, I had a whale accidentally expose his hand when he thought that everyone had folded. He exposed top pair and a flush draw while I was in position with top set. It was a rather large home game and we all know a whale is never folding his hand for any amount. I politely told him that I had him crushed and that we can just check it down. He agreed and a few players in the game thanked me for making a favorable decision in his favor.

Any person who has played with me or has known me since I first started playing poker knows that I am an honest and very fair person. Since Alec had asked me to talk to him after the show, I had proposed these deals to him.

At first, I beat around the bush asking for the $10,000 of questionable chips back. He declined. I then propose the idea that my AT has roughly %20 equity vs his AQ, how about we do an equity chop of again just the $10,000 of questionable chips - I asked for $2,000 back. He again declined. Now, if he would have never asked me to speak with him, I would have never asked for money back. I would have just moved on to live with the hand.

This is when I developed hatred towards Alec: his 'deal' that he proposed to me is that he would SELL ME HIS ACTION IN A LATER CASH GAME AT A DISCOUNT.

I can't remember the exact numbers that he blurted out but he told me that his hourly was 'x' amount in the game and that he would sell me his action at a discount for 'y'.

So you (debatably) angle someone for heaps of money, act all cordial and sorry on camera, and then want them to invest more money in you?!?!?

Spoiler - I have yet to buy any of Alec's action.

On top of this, I later found out that Alec has been involved in scams in the past. Now I'm rather new to poker (have only played full time for not even two years) and obviously don't know what is true and what is not, but the online chip dumping as well as other random stories that people inform me are in Alec's past. We all know that in poker, your reputation is everything. Albeit, this is just my opinion, I do not think it is inconceivable that Alec attempts to display himself on PNIA and his website and YouTube channel as a very honorable person in attempt to help burry his past. He is very much all about his image and promoting himself.

As I said, I understand that in the end it boils down to it being my responsibility to always know how much a player has. His slap in the face offer to me after the game is what caused me to develop a hatred towards him. It was a very controversial hand and i accept the fact that i am ,at the least, partially at fault. I’ve learned from it but I will always hate that hummus eating dork.

He is psychopathically arrogant. He really does believe he is a demigod walking among humans.

Ahahah wtfffff

Welcome to 2p2. I don't know you, but if you are who you say you are, you're a really nice guy. I wish the poker community had more honest and fair people like you, but unfortunately it's the opposite. I've played live poker for over 12 years and I've seen a pattern of new players being naive/too nice. They get taken advantage of a lot in the beginning until they learn to be hyper vigilant and stop "giving". In the poker world, every dollar that you "give", you will have opportunistic leeches trying to angle you for more. Don't get me wrong, there are still some great people in poker, but poker inherently attracts a lot of greedy and scummy people who will try to get an edge any way they can.

I'd say protect yourself at the poker table from the opportunistic but don't change who you are as a generous and upstanding person because that $hit will destroy your soul.

Thanks for sharing your POV on that PNIA experience. You have many people on your side. I hope Torelli will man up and give you at least 2k back, but I highly doubt he will. We've all had to pay a price as n00bs. I still get angled occasionally but those shennanigans don't surprise me anymore and I've learned to not respond emotionally to give the scumbags any edge.

How much did he ask you to invest? If it's a large percentage, I can't help but wonder if he's planning a chip dump while getting staked since he's no stranger to that. Dude's gotta make 10 million in 10 years somehow.

yeah whats with the doofus who wants to see the cards of the guy who folds next to him?

I'm with you man.

A few people around here think Alex wasn't offside but the consensus is definitely that it was a complete scumbag move. Some of the images and video posts made by our NVG sleuths make it very clear that Alex performed a very dirty angle. I often delete the word scumbag or similar terms in this forum but in this case I've let them stand.

Thanks for coming on and telling your side SoggyCakes....
it really helps me (and probably many others) to know what happened after...