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Old 05-21-2017, 06:38 PM   #1
Chumbardo
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Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HpSRXssFqo

Discuss? There is no way someone of his caliber and experience would mistakenly have those large denomination chips hidden like that.

----------

Mod edit: see post #218 below for the views of Daniel (Clarence) Wolf, the other key player in the hand in question.

Last edited by whosnext; 06-02-2017 at 01:17 PM.
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Old 05-21-2017, 07:04 PM   #2
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

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Old 05-21-2017, 07:13 PM   #3
watevs
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

Interesting. Big chips should certainly be visible. Here's a picture of the table right after Torelli reraised



Certainly they aren't in the proper spot, but I'm not familiar enough with the rules to know what should happen here.

Whether the rules protect him or not, however, I think Daniel Wolf should at least have some responsibility to know the stack of his opponent.

If I was playing against say, an older amateur who might not know the rule, I'd be pretty uncomfortable not paying him the extra 10, as there is certainly some responsibility to know how much your opponents are playing.

If the 5k chips were rotated say 80 degrees around the orange chips and thus a bit more visible, I'd say that it would be 100% on Mr. Wolf

In this spot, however, it appears as if no one other than the 1 and 7 seat are able to see the 5k chips
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Old 05-21-2017, 07:20 PM   #4
greg nice
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

Torelli admits that he thinks the guy was being genuine, so then he should say that they are playing for the size without the extra $10k
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Old 05-21-2017, 07:36 PM   #5
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

Some goofballs at that table..
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Old 05-21-2017, 07:41 PM   #6
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

Inadvertent angle. Nothing to see here. Put away pitchforks.
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Old 05-21-2017, 07:43 PM   #7
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

From experience this type of "angle shoot" can be quite painful & can cause quite the argument, but at least most of the time it's an honest mistake on behalf of the player accidentally not having all his large denoms visible to the whole table which I'd dare say is the case with Torelli here.
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Old 05-21-2017, 07:49 PM   #8
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

That outfit is an angleshot. Poker Player: Sam Farha from the clearance rack at halloween city.

Last edited by J_V; 05-21-2017 at 07:56 PM.
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Old 05-21-2017, 07:50 PM   #9
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

^^Agree with greg. This is the right play assuming Alec truly believes the guy is being sincere.

This really could be an honest mistake, but I've just seen so much scummy **** at this point, and the fact that he wouldn't open a discussion for a smaller pot because of his mistake is pretty cold to say the least. Theres no way I could take that money and feel ok about it.
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Old 05-21-2017, 08:03 PM   #10
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

Torelli said that the difference wouldn't affect his decision, but in the interview afterwards, he said that Wolf's reaction was so genuine that he didn't think he had AA/KK. Seems pretty scummy to not even entertain playing for the smaller amount given that his "angle" not only caused Wolf to make a decision he wouldn't have made otherwise, but induced a reaction that allowed Torelli to make a better decision.
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Old 05-21-2017, 08:07 PM   #11
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting



He made this vid over a year ago
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Old 05-21-2017, 09:18 PM   #12
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

so many douchebags jbfc
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Old 05-21-2017, 09:33 PM   #13
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

total angle. first thing he does is move the chips out casually after other guy is all in.
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Old 05-21-2017, 10:11 PM   #14
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

I would think Alec is confident enough in his game that he doesn't feel the need to angle shoot. But I find it odd that he kept saying "I don't know if it will affect my decision." BS. In a game of very limited information, when you're opponent just gave you massive information that he didn't hold a premium hand how can that not influence your decision. He may not know if he will call or not but his reaction will influence his decision 100%

Last edited by joedot; 05-21-2017 at 10:21 PM.
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Old 05-21-2017, 10:19 PM   #15
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

Scumbag.
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Old 05-21-2017, 11:37 PM   #16
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

h
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Old 05-22-2017, 12:48 AM   #17
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

He also stole that outfit from Larry in Threes Company
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Old 05-22-2017, 12:57 AM   #18
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by LOLCh1pPorn View Post
When a picture tells 1k words . . .

could've locked up the thread after this post haha
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Old 05-22-2017, 01:07 AM   #19
zica
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

The way he brought them out from behind his stack and said, "do you cover me", looks pretty ****ing suspicious imo. I think we should assume it's an angle. The dealer should have caught it before hand, and the player should have asked the dealer how much Alec had left before shoving. Suspect everyone.
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Old 05-22-2017, 01:31 AM   #20
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

the way his silver chips are hidden, the way he reacts after being shoved on.. complete angle.
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Old 05-22-2017, 02:26 AM   #21
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

Yeah... that's not good.

I can't assume it's intentional but having large chips hidden that perfectly is a complete bonehead move for a live pro at any level.

If I was the floor I would rule the 10k is not in play. But the floor in this clip doesn't see where the chips were. He might presume they are only hard to see, not impossible. In which case, ruling that it is Wolf's responsibility would be reasonable.

Looks like a third party at the table called for the floor promptly which is good. It's not fair to Wolf if he has to protest on his own behalf. Players should always be proactive when they see a situation arise that is likely to require a ruling, because the earlier a verdict is made the easier it is sorted. Unfortunately he was stunned and reacted without thinking, giving up his hand anyway. I wish the other players had explained just how badly his stack was arranged, it's clear the floor did not realize it.

I think in Alec's shoes, the ethical thing to do is offer not to play the 10k before making a decision. Yes he's at a disadvantage this way. But he has to take some responsibility for creating the situation. (Side effect of honesty -- It protects you. If Wolf was in fact angling, he'd react strangely to this offer.)

In Wolf's shoes, I would calmly state that I did not know he had the large chips and to call the floor. I would explain how the chips were arranged making the 5k chips invisible. And then I would protest no more, even if I was ruled against and did not like it, because it would not change the floor's mind but it would help Alec make his call.

At least that's what I'd like to say, maybe in the heat of the moment I don't Can't blame him for the way he reacted at all, only pointing out the most +EV line.

Normally when going all in I will ask if the raiser has any large chips hidden, but from his angle I probably wouldn't have. The way it is arranged, it looks like his entire stack is visible. I can't understate how stupid that is if accidental.

Last edited by DK Barrel; 05-22-2017 at 02:31 AM.
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Old 05-22-2017, 03:40 AM   #22
Two SHAE
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

Man angle or not, Wolf needs to not tellbox his weak hand once he realizes he misread the stacks...
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Old 05-22-2017, 06:10 AM   #23
dudebroIII
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

Weird because it doesn't seem intentional, but no live pro would make this mistake. Maybe there was a big hand right before that caused him to restack his chips poorly? Turrible ruling by the floor obv.
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Old 05-22-2017, 09:37 AM   #24
steelers21
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

With the way it was edited, it seemed like Alec was going to let the guy off for the extra amount because he supposedly felt bad about it...and then he just didn't do it and stacked the guy. Hmm.
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Old 05-22-2017, 11:58 AM   #25
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re: Alec Torelli Caught Angleshooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chumbardo View Post
There is no way someone of his caliber and experience would mistakenly have those large denomination chips hidden like that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dudebroIII View Post
but no live pro would make this mistake.
These

Quote:
Originally Posted by zica View Post
the player should have asked the dealer how much Alec had left before shoving
Quote:
Originally Posted by Two SHAE View Post
Man angle or not, Wolf needs to not tellbox his weak hand once he realizes he misread the stacks...
And these.

A class act would have asked the floor to not let the $10k play imo.
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