exciting implications?

In the right context (ie, previous history), I think this play is far from questionable. It isn't nearly as obv to raise the river as people seem to saying in this thread. That being said, it isn't like it's a standard hand IMO ... either something is going on or there's a lot of history between these two that's being factored in. Maybe ADZ doesn't think it's profitable to raise the river against Roman on this board with Roman's line for the risk/reward reasons mentioned earlier?

agreed

I don't like ADZ, and I don't really know Roman, although I know he is a very good player, and I've never seen him doing anything untoward, but I gotta admit, this hand, along with the fact that ADZ is playing on his ChrisChun acct is VERY sketchy IMHO. Kinda surprised more people didn't key on the chrischun correlation, really.

Also, if they were going to softplay, and therefore collude passively if not specifically actively, with the arrangement on the Chrischun acct it would seem extra obvious that they just resplit earnings after play so nothing looks untoward. So that's a point in the " It's just a really oddly played hand" camp.

I don't see how ADZ's play can be fine

hahahahahhahahahaahahahahahah this hand is so funny hahahahahahahahhah is this all some kind of leveling? softplay at its best and people try to explain it

Hasn't Stars said numerous times that they don't care if people softplay each other headup. I though Twin had a whole group of high stakes players that he had an agreement with a while back when he played all the time. I personally think it is bull [censored] [censored], but if Stars doesn't care then what is the point of this thread b/c it doesn't matter either way.

god c'mon, the only reason he would just call early in the hand would be to raise later on... and he didn't... and it aint like the board got that scary

i'm not sayin anything either way, but hasnt everyone played scenarios like this at least once in theyre lives? gut feeling? dont want to scare the guy off? then when the hands turn over, u feel like a real idiot.

so of course, the next time u flop top set on a straight board, u stack off to a straight. HA!

this is a pretty dumb way to softplay. why not just message him to fold when he raises?

'i'm not sayin anything either way, but hasnt everyone played scenarios like this at least once in theyre lives? gut feeling? dont want to scare the guy off? then when the hands turn over, u feel like a real idiot.'


yeah been there done that. hand looks funny obv

Grimm should have posted this in strat forums first w/altered names. Seems like obvious softplay to me. Willing to be convinced otherwise.

this looks bad guys

This is more likely that the game is favorable than not-favorable: if there was collusion theyd just get on AIM/MSN and say "okay now shove ur AA, I call and you owe me $X"

LOL, such obvious softplaying. Anyone trying to rationalize not raising anywhere in this hand should just give up poker.

I never post in this forum but lurk it occasionally and I have emailed stars about a few players softplaying each other in heads up pots and stars responded with this:

"First of all, let's discuss softplay:

Softplay is defined as folding or failing to bet a strong hand versus a
friend or associate.

Leading poker rooms in California, Las Vegas, and elsewhere do not
prohibit soft play in cash games when heads-up. We see no reason why online
games should be any different.

While players online are generally more concerned about collusion, this
particular behaviour is actually less harmful online than in a brick &
mortar room.

This is because it is much easier to secretly collude online than in a
B&M game. Players who openly demonstrate that they are friends and
play soft against each other are very unlikely to be real colluders.

Our current policy is that soft playing when heads-up in a cash game is
not prohibited. This policy has been in effect for well over 5 years
and the number of complaints has been small.

In reviewing the play of the four players you have reported, it is quite
clear that they do softplay each other when heads up. As I have said, that
is fine - their play does not harm anyone else at the table.
The part we are interested in is how they play when they are not heads up in
pots. In particular we are looking for:

- Indications of hole card sharing

At the very least, hole card sharing allows PlayerB to get out of a
hand where he is behind. More commonly it is used to implement
sophisticated squeeze strategies, pot building strategies and subtle
but effective best hand strategies.

- Squeeze play

Squeeze play can take many forms. The objective is to drive other
players out of the game. Typically PlayerA and PlayerB use bets,
raises and re-raises to force others to fold. Often both will have
marginally playable hands as a back up. Other times their cards are
not a consideration.

- Pot building

A form of collusion based on hole card sharing. PlayerA has a very
strong hand and playerB acts to entice others into the pot or trap
other players for extra bets.

- Best hand play

In it's most basic form PlayerA and PlayerB compare hole cards preflop
and the weaker hand folds. More typically, when both have playable
hands, both will see the flop.


Having reviewed literally thousands of hands, I was not able to find any
indication of the above. Like my colleagues before me, I have found these
players to be innocent.

I hope that I've set your mind at ease, regarding not only the play of
these four, but also the seriousness with which we take the integrity of
our site. If you have any further queries, please do not hesitate to let
us know.


Regards,

Stuart W"

Edit: If this is all one big level, got me.

Because if they fold aces or kings preflop when playing each other, stars support would be able to see that they are colluding when reviewing the hands.
I can't understand people who are saying this hand is not softplay, especially when played between two very good high stakes players.

Guys use your heads, this clearly was not soft playing. If it was, they would have been communicating by AIM or something else anyway, and would not have been dumb enough to have a hand like this go to showdown. ADZ just simply would have re-raised the river, told Empire what he had, and Empire would have folded. The fact that ADZ called, is not a complete moron, and knows how bad it would actually look if they were infact soft playing, makes it obvious they weren't.

or guy with aa can 3bet pf and message his buddy to fold bc he has aces and, ya kno, safe him a few k.

Yeah exactly.

Ok I give up, seems like you don't want to understand that there is a difference between softplay and collusion.

This game was not at a casino. It was played online, where the players could talk on aim/phone or some other service without being detected. I could understand your point about them softplaying if it was live at a casino but why the hell would they softplay online, where they can just tell each other what they have and no one would be able to know they are communicating?

In my experience, people who softplay find that way less "wrong" than messenging players and telling hand information and/or what to do. That is really on the edge of outright blatant cheating. Neither is okay obviously, but people saying that there are better ways of going about softplaying/colluding are missing the point, I think.

wow anyone trying to make an arguement for adz play in this hand being ANYTHING but softplaying is ******ed. dont even waste my time. "theres a good arguement to be made for not raising the river" LOLLLL you are terrible at poker.

maybe roman didnt enter into an agreement but this hand is clear softplay by adz.

thanks that's what I wanted to say but I'm not very fluent in english