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Old 10-05-2016, 04:12 PM   #326
AllJackedUp
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

Conflicts of interest happen all the time in tournament poker. Players are sponsored by the same companies or affiliated companies. Players share pieces or backers. There may be players with jobs wherein their employers are affiliated (this is what you're specifically saying in this instance, right?).

Golf may be a good analogy, as the same thing happens in golf tournaments.

It's usually not a big deal and there is no rule against it. Unless you can show some impropriety here, then you're really just casting aspersions.
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Old 10-05-2016, 04:44 PM   #327
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

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Originally Posted by PraguePoker View Post
As I stated in my previous post, there are conflicts of interest galore throughout the main event. It's the nature of any event with many thousands of participants. You can never avoid conflicts like this, to do so would dramatically limit the field. And as I also stated, in my opinion the greatest conflict is the WSOP's desire to see a big name or two make the final table. And nobody is going to ban big names from the event... If you want to go after conflicts, start there.

In any case, I also asked what is to be done, and neither you nor anyone else has provided any answers. You are simply, in classic Cartman fashion, "Asking the questions!" Which is fine, but at some point you need to propose some actual solutions to all of your sound and fury.

I think the solution is simple: rely on the integrity and professionalism of the people who manage the event, beginning with the tournament director. And once that credibility is lost, changes should be made asap.

So can anyone here point to any pattern of favoritism from the tournament director, or any other senior official affiliated with the WSOP, to anyone participating in the main event? I don't mean nitpicking to death one ruling taken in isolation, I'm looking for a pattern of preferential treatment towards one participant, i.e. evidence. Can you provide some?

[Crickets]

This entire thread was started by someone who wanted to launch a personal attack against the tournament director. He admitted as such. And yet this incident is a weak foundation on which to build that case. It's not easy to manage events of this size, to have to make quick rulings on camera in high pressure situations with less than perfect information. Nobody is perfect. Overall, at least from what I've seen on TV, the WSOP is managed well. Yes, I think she deserved more time to think, but these things happen in an event of this size.

But if you whiners and misogynists ("sweetheart") have a different opinion and are prepared to present actual evidence, I'm all ears (or, in this case, eyes).
When you were a little boy, you had a dream of growing up to rule the world. Now you're reduced to trying to rule an NVG thread, with everyone laughing at you. Life is cruel.

"Why don't they understand? Why?? :banghead: I stated a point, and offered my solution, and I stated my opinion on another point, and offered my solution to the important problem in my opinion, and I challenged all of you to cite situations that I think are somehow related to something that I feel is similar but NOBODY RESPONDED TO ME, it's like nobody understands my valuable thoughts that I am freely sharing with all of you??? OK you're all a bunch of whiners and misogynists and probably racists too, why am I even bothering to help you guys come up to my level?? "
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Old 10-05-2016, 04:46 PM   #328
Crazy Joe Davola
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

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Based on all the hands we saw , I already saw a few glaring tells confirmed multiple times
.....what were they?
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Old 10-05-2016, 04:55 PM   #329
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

Oh I see you guys made up. Bobo has the patience of a saint.
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Old 10-05-2016, 05:30 PM   #330
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

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Originally Posted by AllJackedUp View Post
Conflicts of interest happen all the time in tournament poker. Players are sponsored by the same companies or affiliated companies. Players share pieces or backers. There may be players with jobs wherein their employers are affiliated (this is what you're specifically saying in this instance, right?).

Golf may be a good analogy, as the same thing happens in golf tournaments.
None of those are remotely close to the same thing. If one of the PGA officials made a ruling on the course and also worked for the same player's sponsor, that would be an apt comparison. What do you think would be the public's reaction to that?

Actually, that inspires me to bring up my own analogy; I usually avoid these as they're almost always flawed and wind up leading to a mini-derail, but I'll try one here.

PGA golfer John Doe also does some golf officiating on the side (or if you find it more realistic, he's primarily a golf official, but qualified for a PGA event). He is involved on the executive of an officiating school. It just so happens that Bob Smith, one of the PGA officials on the course that day, is also an executive of the same officiating school. A situation comes up where an official ruling on John's last shot is required, and Bob is the official who makes the ruling. If it becomes public later that they are executives of the same officiating school, do you think anyone would have a problem with this?

And yes, I know the analogy isn't perfect (they never are), but I think the principle is close enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllJackedUp View Post
It's usually not a big deal and there is no rule against it. Unless you can show some impropriety here, then you're really just casting aspersions.
No, I've been extremely careful to avoid casting aspersions. I think the ruling was fine, and have been very clear that I'm simply discussing a conflict of interest, and whether tournaments can and should take steps to avoid ones of this level.
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Old 10-05-2016, 05:37 PM   #331
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

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Originally Posted by Bobo Fett View Post
None of those are remotely close to the same thing. If one of the PGA officials made a ruling on the course and also worked for the same player's sponsor, that would be an apt comparison.


No, I've been extremely careful to avoid casting aspersions. I think the ruling was fine, and have been very clear that I'm simply discussing a conflict of interest, and whether tournaments can and should take steps to avoid ones of this level.
Ah, I've misunderstood your meaning, then.

What do you suggest as far as steps?
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Old 10-05-2016, 05:46 PM   #332
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

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What do you suggest as far as steps?
I would think tournament organizers would be wise to have some rules in place that floor people who have close relationships with players shouldn't be the ones to make rulings on their actions. The threshold of how close those relationships should be to have this kick in would be a matter of some debate, I'm sure, but I think the case at hand would be on the wrong side of the line.

It would be a rule that would protect the integrity and reputation of the tournament and the floor people. I expect that in the vast majority of situations like this, the ruling made is fine - it's mostly bad perceptions that you're looking to avoid. But of course, even though I suspect they would be rare, you really want to avoid any actual improprieties.

All that said, I'm sure situations like this don't come up often, and if there aren't any rules about this, that's probably why.
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Old 10-05-2016, 05:50 PM   #333
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

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Originally Posted by Bobo Fett View Post
I would think tournament organizers would be wise to have some rules in place that floor people who have close relationships with players shouldn't be the ones to make rulings on their actions. The threshold of how close those relationships should be to have this kick in would be a matter of some debate, I'm sure, but I think the case at hand would be on the wrong side of the line.

It would be a rule that would protect the integrity and reputation of the tournament and the floor people. I expect that in the vast majority of situations like this, the ruling made is fine - it's mostly bad perceptions that you're looking to avoid. But of course, even though I suspect they would be rare, you really want to avoid any actual improprieties.

All that said, I'm sure situations like this don't come up often, and if there aren't any rules about this, that's probably why.
see? as I said in PM, we need a thread. ;-)
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Old 10-05-2016, 06:02 PM   #334
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

Feel free to start it!

In MTTc - Live, of course.
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Old 10-05-2016, 06:03 PM   #335
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

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.....what were they?
Sry no strat in NVG. Just watch again . One is blatant. Other one more subtle but very reliable .
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Old 10-05-2016, 08:31 PM   #336
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

The guy in the opening credits beard is so beast it's sucking hair from his scalp

This is why I can't watch televised poker dumb stoic stares and confused facial expressions as if they are calculating something when really they are just deciding if they feel lucky or not.

This guy talking and pushing the director is at least making it entertaining.

First they ***** about internet guys not talking and now they ***** when someone does talk make up your mind. If this were during the Jamie gold year he would have been DQ based on these standards.

Last edited by Drrr.Gonzo; 10-05-2016 at 08:41 PM.
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Old 10-05-2016, 09:02 PM   #337
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

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give me a capitao or a kassouf over any of these antisocial ****ing grinders that smell like soup.

i love drinking beers and talking/needling while im playing poker so, yeah, the TD penalty is absolutely absurd. If you dont like his talking, ignore him. If its a cash game move, if its a tournament put in some headphones.

When a guy like kassouf sees you are greatly annoyed by him, he will sense the weakness and just needle more. Thick skin laugh it off and all that. IMO his schtick will only work on new/learning players and scrubs who get annoyed by him. watch gregg play his game against him he barely bats an eye.
Yeah +1

Funny post too
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Old 10-06-2016, 12:49 PM   #338
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

Is what Kassouf does angle shooting or cheating?
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Old 10-06-2016, 02:06 PM   #339
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

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Originally Posted by AllJackedUp View Post
Is what Kassouf does angle shooting or cheating?
I think its gamesmanship, if you cant stand the heat get out of the kitchen, if you cant run with the big dogs stay on the porch
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Old 10-06-2016, 03:59 PM   #340
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

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Originally Posted by AllJackedUp View Post
Is what Kassouf does angle shooting or cheating?
You make it sound like it must be one of the other. It's neither.
Complaining about it, however, is an kind of angle shot.
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Old 10-06-2016, 04:02 PM   #341
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

a syllogism, then:

1) intentionally breaking the rules to gain an edge is cheating.
2) Kassouf is intentionally breaking the rules to gain an edge.
3) therefore, Kassouf is cheating.

I don't think anybody can genuinely argue against #1.

#3 follows from 1 & 2 as long as #2 is true.

So, is #2 true? It's plain Kassouf is doing it intentionally since he continues to do it after being warned and penalized from the TD. Is it breaking the rules? I've posted WSOP rule #116 itt, and yes, it seems a clear violation of that rule.

He's a cheater.
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Old 10-06-2016, 04:13 PM   #342
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

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Originally Posted by AllJackedUp View Post
Is what Kassouf does angle shooting or cheating?
It is information extraction, but it should be a hard and fast rule that if it is your turn to act the other player should not be allowed to speak to you if you indicate that you do not wish to be spoken to and do not then engage them in return.

Problem solved (Oh, and add an automatic shot clock controlled by the dealer!)
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Old 10-06-2016, 05:19 PM   #343
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

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Originally Posted by AllJackedUp View Post
a syllogism, then:

1) intentionally breaking the rules to gain an edge is cheating.
2) Kassouf is intentionally breaking the rules to gain an edge.
3) therefore, Kassouf is cheating.

I don't think anybody can genuinely argue against #1.

#3 follows from 1 & 2 as long as #2 is true.

So, is #2 true? It's plain Kassouf is doing it intentionally since he continues to do it after being warned and penalized from the TD. Is it breaking the rules? I've posted WSOP rule #116 itt, and yes, it seems a clear violation of that rule.

He's a cheater.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllJackedUp View Post
Seriously, stop defending Kassouf.

116. Etiquette Violations: Repeated etiquette violations will result in the imposition of penalties assessed by the Tournament Staff. Examples include, but are not limited to, unnecessarily touching other participantsí cards or chips, body, or clothing, delay of the game, repeatedly acting out of turn, betting out of reach of the dealer, or excessive chatter. Excessive chatter includes, but is not limited to, talking or conversation that causes a disruption of participants who are in a hand.

Talk all you want when action is on you; don't disrupt another player's right to consider their action when it's their turn. This isn't that hard and the poker community defending this guy is making themselves look really bad. Just stop.
I suggest you read rule 116 again then, especially the very first word, etiquette.

An etiquette violation, by definition, is not cheating.

I would add that, to me, the section you highlighted actually refers to players not involved in the hand in progress. This is what Hellmuth was complaining about in his famous blowup on Poker After Dark with Annie, Sheiky and Gus.
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Old 10-06-2016, 05:59 PM   #344
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

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Originally Posted by AllJackedUp View Post
a syllogism, then:

1) intentionally breaking the rules to gain an edge is cheating.
2) Kassouf is intentionally breaking the rules to gain an edge.
3) therefore, Kassouf is cheating.

I don't think anybody can genuinely argue against #1.

#3 follows from 1 & 2 as long as #2 is true.

So, is #2 true? It's plain Kassouf is doing it intentionally since he continues to do it after being warned and penalized from the TD. Is it breaking the rules? I've posted WSOP rule #116 itt, and yes, it seems a clear violation of that rule.

He's a cheater.
1)when you break the rules in basketball you're given a foul.
2)To avoid easy baskets players often intentionally break the rules to gain an edge and intentionally foul
3) Basketball players are cheaters
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Old 10-06-2016, 06:22 PM   #345
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

I liked the new episode where the other Englishman whined with great Sarcasm .. flooor he's trying to influence my actionn...
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Old 10-06-2016, 07:37 PM   #346
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

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I suggest you read rule 116 again then, especially the very first word, etiquette.

An etiquette violation, by definition, is not cheating.

I would add that, to me, the section you highlighted actually refers to players not involved in the hand in progress. This is what Hellmuth was complaining about in his famous blowup on Poker After Dark with Annie, Sheiky and Gus.
There is nothing in the wording of the rule that limits this to players not in the hand. It hasn't really come up before that I remember because nobody has taken the opportunity to gain an edge by intentionally disrupting an opponent's right to think while it's their action. Well, Tony G, I suppose?

I'm not sure what you're saying about etiquette violations. Are you saying it's in the rules but isn't really a rule? Or, it's ok to intentionally violate this rule to gain an edge? Serious question. Frankly, I'm not sure how we could ever write a rule that really stops disruption while still allowing games to be social.
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Old 10-06-2016, 07:43 PM   #347
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

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Originally Posted by ZOMG_RIGGED! View Post
1)when you break the rules in basketball you're given a foul.
2)To avoid easy baskets players often intentionally break the rules to gain an edge and intentionally foul
3) Basketball players are cheaters
#1 is false.
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Old 10-06-2016, 07:55 PM   #348
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

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Originally Posted by AllJackedUp View Post
There is nothing in the wording of the rule that limits this to players not in the hand. It hasn't really come up before that I remember because nobody has taken the opportunity to gain an edge by intentionally disrupting an opponent's right to think while it's their action. Well, Tony G, I suppose?

I'm not sure what you're saying about etiquette violations. Are you saying it's in the rules but isn't really a rule? Or, it's ok to intentionally violate this rule to gain an edge? Serious question. Frankly, I'm not sure how we could ever write a rule that really stops disruption while still allowing games to be social.
There is plenty in the wording that implies that, but because it's so vague Jack used it how he felt like at the time.

I was pointing out that you are wrong to say violating etiquette is the same as cheating.

Look up the meaning of the word etiquette.
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Old 10-06-2016, 08:04 PM   #349
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

I didn't say an etiquette violation is necessarily cheating.
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Old 10-06-2016, 08:14 PM   #350
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

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I didn't say an etiquette violation is necessarily cheating.
Yes you did. See below. You have said he is breaching Rule 116 (the rule that refers to table etiquette) and have come to the incorrect conclusion that by breaching Rule 116 Kassouf is cheating.

You wrote it, not me!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllJackedUp View Post
a syllogism, then:

1) intentionally breaking the rules to gain an edge is cheating.
2) Kassouf is intentionally breaking the rules to gain an edge.
3) therefore, Kassouf is cheating.

I don't think anybody can genuinely argue against #1.

#3 follows from 1 & 2 as long as #2 is true.

So, is #2 true? It's plain Kassouf is doing it intentionally since he continues to do it after being warned and penalized from the TD. Is it breaking the rules? I've posted WSOP rule #116 itt, and yes, it seems a clear violation of that rule.

He's a cheater.
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