See post 41 in this thread for the HUGE increase in rake you will be paying for playing 8 handed. That is the reason why greedy poker rooms are keeping things at 8-handed.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...4&postcount=41

they will make more 8 handed. so will i.

That post is still stupid. Your cost in rake per hand will decrease (higher % of hands don’t see the flop). It’s like saying “look at the HUGE increase in rake you pay when you play for 6 hours instead of 4!” Measuring cost of blinds/hand is nonsense. A) not all of us lose the entire amount we pay in blinds, B) money lost in the blinds get redistributed to the other players who in turn lose it back when they are in the blinds.

If we are playing 8-handed for the forseeable future, I think there needs to be a change when players leave the table.
9-10 handed, you can miss 3 orbits before you get your chips and seat removed.

I propose that after you miss one orbit, you lose your chips and seat.

I was at the borgata last week and often 1-2 players weren't at the table.

That depends on house rules.

At places where the time you can miss is determined by dealer downs you can easily maximize your time away from the table by leaving after the first hand of a new dealer and returning right before the last one checks out.

for 8 handed

3rd man walking rule ===> 2nd man walking rule

would help a bit.

In the short term.

It’s driving away some of the fish and rec players. And that will hurt the casinos and you in the long term.

says you.
it also chases away miserable nits making the games more fun for these recs and fish.

I don't know if it drives people away from the game. I still see the OMC's at the table, but I would request the first table change. There are still players limp calling K3 offsuit for a 6x raise. I did notice less straddling at the borgata though, although I don't go out as often lately.

I know for a fact that 8-handed, $5 rake has driven some players whom I know away. Some aren’t playing at all and some have cut back on their play. And that has a ripple effect and has led to other players cutting back. Again - this is for players I know personally, and I know why they aren’t playing as much as they used to.

You mentioned Borgata. Its poker business is way down. Management and players who think it is all due to COVID fears or it being tougher to get comped rooms are mistaken. Those are certainly large factors, but not the whole story.

Thanks for pointing that out, though I tend to agree with another poster who pointed out how this logic may be flawed. You have not shown that your winrate ($ / hand) goes down.

I'm a rec player and I'm friends with many more rec players. I'm also pretty skeptical that 8 handed drives away recs and fish.

What's so bad about 8max for recs? I get that some people don't want to play effectively 6 handed when the table is 8 max, but I'm skeptical that recs really care whether there are 6 or 7 players on average playing. The major issue I see I guess is breaking tables and the dynamics around that.

Mason's comment here was interesting -- that playing shorter-handed should increase variance, which can be bad for the long-term health of the game because more variance means that recs are more likely to go broke sooner.

We have some reason to believe that recs prefer higher variance. In my view, most recs are trying to "have fun", which means wider ranges, higher variance, and more hands per hour.

This is one of the main problems with 8 handed in addition to the much higher rake. You are often 7 or 6 handed due to players walking or waiting for a new player to fill an empty seat. With 9-10 handed you really averaged 8 to 9 handed. Now with 8 handed you will likely average 7 handed. At most 15 minutes should be the limit away from the table. If you need to get up to eat for 45- 1hr like most places allow, you should pick up and the room should allow you to be 1st up on the list as you leave to eat as a courtesy to other players. The worse is when 2 players get up to eat together or 1 leaves for 45 minutes then comes back and picks up without playing a hand.

borgata poker room is run HORRIBLY.the dealers and floors are almost all terrible. you can't call in. since mgm fully took over it's even worse- comp rooms are basically gone,hour long waits if you call room reservations, my calandar shows 200-400 dollars for random week nights when they used to be 59 if i had already used my comps for the week and every poker player i've talked to from there says the same thing.. the cage closes at 10 pm (maybe 11?)- basically the entire place has gone to hell. a TON of their players were from NY and with the comp rooms gone they have ZERO reason to go there anymore. lmao@thinking it's bc games are now 8 handed they stopped going.

It is definitely a bit sad to see only half the tables open on a sunday, but haven't several casinos opened in the last few years?
It used to be a choice of atlantic city or foxwoods but now there is parx, mgm, etc..
They arent too far from new york either.

You can play in clubs in new york which is preferential to driving 2-3 hours to the borgata.

My local casino went from 9 to 8 handed. So much tougher to beat. I make the drive to the casino that's still 9-handed and easily beatable.

how would changing from 9 to 8 handed make a game tougher. I have heard of longer wait lists making less recs walk in from the pits is that what you mean? Its probably a you problem going from 9-8 handed should raise your hourly not lower it

If you're a mega nit it will make it harder.
It's also possible the casino he goes to where it's 9 handed happens to have much worse players than the casino he goes to where it's 8 handed.

My win rate when everything was 7 handed at borg/parx (about 750 hours of play) was way higher than my normal win rate. I don't think that is a coincidence.

This thread is really funny.

1) Recs want to come to the casino and limp in and try to hit big hands for a couple hours and maybe book a win 30-40% of the time and because they don't keep track of wins and losses they fool themselves into thinking they are winning players. These are boomers who will never change their ways and won't adapt to the newer age of poker so when limping or calling 1 raise is harder for them to do this is the biggest reason they stop playing.

2) The sick LAG crusher who perma has the seat change button, head on a swivel every 5 minutes trying to change to the softest table, always sitting on fishes left and iso raising them nonstop while talking about solvers and other poker strategy at the table with the other pro(s) that they absolutely refuse to play a hand against - these are the real reasons recs stop playing. These types of people **** on NITS but they are basically professional live bum hunters who look for every advantage they can get and become pissy that the NIT waiting for aces is making more money than they are.

3) Multiple people in this thread remind me of the dude whos home game full of manicured whales isn't running for the month because there is only 2 fish instead of the usual 3 so they have to slum it at the local casino and play against the types they refuse to let in their game. Poker is really easy when you can control your environment and befriend bad players to use them for profit. These people whine nonstop and self tilt when they are forced to play outside of their usual bubbled environment and their attitudes are terrible towards anyone that isn't there to donate.

4) Every NIT at the table is making the game more short handed.

5) 8 handed isnt a big deal but as a few people have already noted its very important to consider what the recs actually want from the game and not the "action" players who think they are above everyone else.

I agree player#2 is awful but honestly I've never seen a good LAG do those things. I've never asked for a seat change button or seat hopped for position. I also wouldn't consider myself a LAG. It's not even good TAGs who do those things- it's mega nits who don't remotely understand poker is a social game who think they have to suck up every ounce of short term ev bc they're not remotely good at poker. It's literally the worst of the worst "winning" players who do these things. They need to not only be in a great game to win, they need the Jesus seat. It's pathetic. They'll "go get food" when the whale takes a break. And I think the people who talk strategy/solvers at the table should be shot in the face.


I agree we should consider what RECs want. Most recs are fine with 7-8 handed poker but they really don't want any shorter than that.
OMCs are waving their hands in a 9 handed game the second someone gets up for the floor to fill the seat. Most recs couldn't care less when it goes from 9 to 8 or 8 to 7.
When Borgata and Parx were 7 handed I noticed 7 to 6 bothered them a little but 6 to 5 is really when they weren't comfortable/having fun.
Parx filled seats pretty fast but Borgata would take forever. There were a few times where a game broke bc someone was at dinner,some other genius decided he also wanted to go to dinner instead of waiting for the first guy to come back, someone would go to the bathroom and then nobody wanted to play.

Every region is going to be different but what you're describing in my game is the local OMC. Most NITS in my game at least have proper etiquette and celebrate when the fish walks away with a big win after only playing for 45 minutes. I don't mind having fellow NITS at my table because those are the ones I am getting 2 streets of cash from and then blowing them off top pair on the river. If you turn the 9 handed game into a 6max 3/4 bet or fold table the recs will dry up fast I promise you. It's the entitled complainers that kill a game not the dude waiting for aces.

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned is that I strongly doubt the NITS are just going to up and leave if the game turns 8 handed. I'd argue it's the breakeven / slight losing players who vpip limp 40%+ you will lose first.

7 handed should be the new standard for live NL games, especially TV games.

I'd also like to see more sites experiment with 5max and 4 max online just for some added variety. Especially when it comes to PLO.

It's due to the increased rake, which has been showcased in this thread.

My winrate prior to covid when the room was 9-handed was significantly higher than the current 8-handed games. During covid when games were 6-handed it was unbeatable and I simply didn't play. 8 handed is beatable for me, but for a lower hourly.

I'm actually fine with short-handed, but rake should be adjusted accordingly. 7-handed games should be $3 rake. 7-handed games with $5+1 is insanity.

$5+1 (which is about as low as one can find these days) is already too high for FR.

I agree, the rake is too high, but I sincerely believe that 9-handed poker is boring AF!