Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

News, Views, and Gossip For poker news, views, and gossip

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-13-2012, 06:26 PM   #201
DougL
Too helpful for this post
 
DougL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 21,611
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

How is this unclear? He thinks both the 3% and the $10 add on are not going to dealers as much as they should, if they do at all. Then since players have already tipped twice, they refuse to do so at the end. Since that final player tip actually goes to the dealers, he wants to get rid of the competing tips that they either don't see or don't get a fair cut of. When the 3% initially came in, that was the complaint. Random staff at the casino were getting part of it (even a large part) and many dealers were concerned they'd come out worse.
DougL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2012, 06:42 PM   #202
Ditch Digger
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Ditch Digger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,974
After Jimmy leaves will PTC still be in charge of some of the circuit events?
Ditch Digger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2012, 06:44 PM   #203
bigtex21
Pooh-Bah
 
bigtex21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Granbury, Texas
Posts: 5,885
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougL View Post
How is this unclear? He thinks both the 3% and the $10 add on are not going to dealers as much as they should, if they do at all. Then since players have already tipped twice, they refuse to do so at the end. Since that final player tip actually goes to the dealers, he wants to get rid of the competing tips that they either don't see or don't get a fair cut of. When the 3% initially came in, that was the complaint. Random staff at the casino were getting part of it (even a large part) and many dealers were concerned they'd come out worse.
That is correct how do we know how much of the 3% is going to the dealers I haven't seen a spread sheet or anything from the casinos and if you ask how much the dealers are getting per down good luck getting an answer except from a dealer.
bigtex21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2012, 09:17 PM   #204
LiveActionPro
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
LiveActionPro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,626
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

The point is Jimmy is taking a percent of that for HIMSELF, that should be going to the dealers. How hard is this to understand?
LiveActionPro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2012, 09:37 PM   #205
FatalError
Fantasy Site Rep
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: @DraftKings
Posts: 8,185
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Johnson View Post
Seth is coming on the program tomorrow night (02/14). 'Staff appreciation add-ons' at certain WSOPc stops will be included in the topics of discussion. Post any other WSOPc related questions ITT if you wish. I think posting WSOP related questions ITT would derail it so PM me if you want a WSOP related topic brought up.
1. Why does Jimmy/PTC even exist, it doesn't even make sense why WSOP/Caesars it's allowing one of it's own employees to create an outside company and collect middle man fees from Harrahs AND the players in order to do something that WSOP/Caesars could do themselves

2. Why does he feel it is appropriate for him to suggest poker players skip the WSOP or WSOPc if they don't agree with their ever increasing fees. As a representative of the WSOP to suggest that people that do not agree with them or their response to issues does not seem appropriate.

3. Explain why the WSOP/Caesars feels the need to embrace placing an ever increasing percentage of the burden for dealer compensation while referencing the travel expenses involved with providing quality dealers/staff when the EPT and other superior tours with less events at more expensive locations compared to the WSOPc are able to sufficiently compensate their staff? Possibly Caesars would be able to pay their staff appropriately if they weren't taking on so much overhead contracting out the logistics of the WSOPc to an apparently extremely well paid 3rd party company?
FatalError is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2012, 10:06 PM   #206
RedOak
grinder
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 493
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Quote:
Originally Posted by sketchy1 View Post
i was bitching about it a long time ago. i wondered the validity of it, but had no information and never brought it up outside of the discussion from MTTC-live (https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/65...vealed-841246/). there was a discussion in here i believe a while back about it. i believe a former circuit dealer brought it up and was accusing jimmy of pocketing the money.
Yeah, I brought it up a year ago too in mttc venetian deep stack thread and got no response to it. I no longer play tournaments due to the sheer greed of buyin fees by casinos. When I 1st started playing tournaments years ago, the fee was a standard 10% with no 3% taken out of pool for staff. Back then, even a $100 event was $100+$10. Now they are often $100+$25+$5 and 3% witheld. so sick.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=164
RedOak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2012, 11:50 PM   #207
doublejoker
Old News
 
doublejoker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,907
I'm fairly certain that the 70-30 split that bigtex claims is incorrect. I've heard this from reliable sources. The dealers do not receive 70% of the staff addon. They may receive 70% of the 3% witholding which is what you're referring to.

Has anyone from ptc stipulated exactly how the staff addon portion is split. I'm not counting bigtex as a ptc rep.
doublejoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2012, 11:57 PM   #208
bigtex21
Pooh-Bah
 
bigtex21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Granbury, Texas
Posts: 5,885
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Quote:
Originally Posted by doublejoker View Post
I'm fairly certain that the 70-30 split that bigtex claims is incorrect. I've heard this from reliable sources. The dealers do not receive 70% of the staff addon. They may receive 70% of the 3% witholding which is what you're referring to.

Has anyone from ptc stipulated exactly how the staff addon portion is split. I'm not counting bigtex as a ptc rep.
Allen I have been told this not only from dealers but also from Jimmy and Bill.
bigtex21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2012, 12:10 AM   #209
doublejoker
Old News
 
doublejoker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,907
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigtex21 View Post
Allen I have been told this not only from dealers but also from Jimmy and Bill.
Ok let's hear this from at least one dealer or jimmy or bill then.
doublejoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2012, 12:16 AM   #210
MyTurn2Raise
Drug Free MVP
 
MyTurn2Raise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Descalso, Jay, and the pitcher
Posts: 40,595
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

these events are always full of questions

So, let me give y'all my take. I used to follow around WPT stops in 04-05 for cash games. Found the internet. Don't think I played live again until Black Friday outside of rare ring game.

I spent 2 weeks in Vegas this summer at WSOP. Did OK. I've played events at the following WSOPC stops for 11-12 - Horseshoe Southern Indiana (Louisville), Horseshoe Hammond (Chicago), Imperial Palace Biloxi, and Caesar's Las Vegas. It's been rather eye-opening.

First, those $50 vouchers are, in my opinion, a scam. They were at Louisville and Biloxi. Top 27 get a $50 voucher that they try to make mandatory for use at the giant ripoff mega satellite rebuy for a main event seat. What ends up happening is the scroungers who follow the PTC circuit stops, who are all good friends with the td and upper staff of the tourney group, end up benefiting to detriment of healthy poker with integrity. This group shows up knowing most rec guys will not be able to play a satellite a week later or whatever. They typically offer $20 to $25 for every $50 voucher. It ends up an indirect payoff to the group that follows the circuit around and nut-hugs on Jimmy and PTC. When the mega actually takes place, this group will have 6 or 7 vouchers themselves that they bought for way cheap if they intend the play. They'll sometimes sell for $45 to $50 at the time of the tournament. If it's not a scam, it sure looks like one. It's a looting of the recreational guy to go to friends of the family. How the hell are these people allowed near the cash tables as the top 27 bubbles burst, anyway?

The added dealer tips seems to have been covered at length... sigh. Needs to stop.

Caesar's LV was the best stop by far.

Time to get poker out of the old. Integrity and transparency for the future.

There are other issues that are a bigger deal, such as the groups that back each other at some of these smaller stops and how aggressive they are (or aren't) against each other late in events. But, that's a much tougher nut to crack.

Simple stuff like making sure rake is 15% at most, there are no secret add-ons, and there are no deductions for silly vouchers looting the recreational player should be no-brainers at this point. The fact they haven't been embraced is sad. Instead of opportunities, many of these tournament directors are seeing threats. Right away, that should make anyone a skeptic of what the intentions of those people are.
MyTurn2Raise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2012, 12:16 AM   #211
MyTurn2Raise
Drug Free MVP
 
MyTurn2Raise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Descalso, Jay, and the pitcher
Posts: 40,595
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Quote:
Originally Posted by doublejoker View Post
Ok let's hear this from at least one dealer or jimmy or bill then.
more than hear it... let's see the books
MyTurn2Raise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2012, 12:25 AM   #212
MyTurn2Raise
Drug Free MVP
 
MyTurn2Raise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Descalso, Jay, and the pitcher
Posts: 40,595
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

you should see how confused the rec player is when the $50 voucher time hits. It doesn't create goodwill.
MyTurn2Raise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2012, 01:33 AM   #213
FatalError
Fantasy Site Rep
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: @DraftKings
Posts: 8,185
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyTurn2Raise View Post
First, those $50 vouchers are, in my opinion, a scam. They were at Louisville and Biloxi. Top 27 get a $50 voucher that they try to make mandatory for use at the giant ripoff mega satellite rebuy for a main event seat. What ends up happening is the scroungers who follow the PTC circuit stops, who are all good friends with the td and upper staff of the tourney group, end up benefiting to detriment of healthy poker with integrity. This group shows up knowing most rec guys will not be able to play a satellite a week later or whatever. They typically offer $20 to $25 for every $50 voucher. It ends up an indirect payoff to the group that follows the circuit around and nut-hugs on Jimmy and PTC. When the mega actually takes place, this group will have 6 or 7 vouchers themselves that they bought for way cheap if they intend the play. They'll sometimes sell for $45 to $50 at the time of the tournament. If it's not a scam, it sure looks like one. It's a looting of the recreational guy to go to friends of the family. How the hell are these people allowed near the cash tables as the top 27 bubbles burst, anyway?
Seth really needs to answer this one too, this is just a massive scam with the explicit purpose of creating a rake trap. To my knowledge literally nowhere else in poker has this ever been done except by jimmy sommerfeld
FatalError is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2012, 01:44 AM   #214
bigtex21
Pooh-Bah
 
bigtex21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Granbury, Texas
Posts: 5,885
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Quote:
Originally Posted by FatalError View Post
Seth really needs to answer this one too, this is just a massive scam with the explicit purpose of creating a rake trap. To my knowledge literally nowhere else in poker has this ever been done except by jimmy sommerfeld
It was done at the Southern Indiana stop and that is run in house by Jimmy Allen poker room manager
bigtex21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2012, 03:44 AM   #215
LiveActionPro
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
LiveActionPro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,626
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

They all practice this, as long as the big guys have no compitition, they will find ways to screw you all, and you just TAKE IT, there going to bend you over, just bite a stick and get stitches after. Sorry guys, but what else are we going to do, Sit out a WSOP event and make sure no one else shows up?
LiveActionPro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2012, 04:29 AM   #216
ItIsAllGood
journeyman
 
ItIsAllGood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Las Vegas via WA
Posts: 254
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

It pleases me that more people are aware that theyre being scammed by these rakewhores out there and its just so depressing that someone like me who loves tournaments and loved playing online can now not even see myself looking forward to any live series anymore as its just such a disgusting money grab by these people who treat and pay there staffs averagely at best and give not one care to drying up the entire community with this 20-30%+ rake bull****. It WILL stop, either by the players waking up and the casinos realizing this and having to act, or by the whole tourney scene being shriveled up and dying a slow death and never having a chance to grow which would really be a shame.
ItIsAllGood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2012, 02:29 AM   #217
jakz101poker
newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 36
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

These events are becoming more and more worthless. I've been grinding circuits in the midwest for years, including one 6-figure score. After the debacle that was Tunica, I'll be done with the WSOPC unless Charlie Ciresi is running it (like he did in Hammond last year). He's, imo, a top-notch TD.

I have a very close friend and former roommate who used to travel with Jimmy, doing the WSOP and some circuit stops. He stopped traveling with Jimmy because of what a shady jackass he is. I never questioned why he thought this way. I may have to ask him now.
jakz101poker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2012, 02:40 AM   #218
DeuceSeven
Pooh-Bah
 
DeuceSeven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Social Assassin
Posts: 4,592
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Quote:
Originally Posted by jakz101poker View Post
These events are becoming more and more worthless. I've been grinding circuits in the midwest for years, including one 6-figure score. After the debacle that was Tunica, I'll be done with the WSOPC unless Charlie Ciresi is running it (like he did in Hammond last year). He's, imo, a top-notch TD.

I have a very close friend and former roommate who used to travel with Jimmy, doing the WSOP and some circuit stops. He stopped traveling with Jimmy because of what a shady jackass he is. I never questioned why he thought this way. I may have to ask him now.
plz do, come back and post when u find some stuff out.
DeuceSeven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2012, 03:02 AM   #219
MrFizzbin
old hand
 
MrFizzbin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Mostly Harmless.....
Posts: 1,442
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

I first started out playing poker it was playing in Tunica in 2003. What is Harrahs now used to be called The Grand. They had a weekly in-house tournaments that had dealer appreciation tokes for more chips back then (these dealer tokes are not new concepts).

Mississippi gaming made The Grand stop doing the dealer appreciation tokes for chips because players complained. I have no idea why Gaming lets them do it now, but someone must have done some lobbying.

FWIW MJ I'd rather have the $10 dealer appreciation toke for chips than any fracking percentage of the prize pool withheld. That's the real ripoff. That 3% doesn't show up on any fee sheet that I can recover but comes out of my damn pocket none the less.

Tournament directors keep your fracking hands off the prize pool. Fees are yours prize money is ours. How you charge those fees should be known ahead of time.
MrFizzbin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2012, 03:25 AM   #220
Your Mom
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: grinding out a mediocre living
Posts: 12,977
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

yep, first tourney i ever played was at the Grand and they wanted 5 or 10 bucks for another 1000 in chips. Believe you got 5k to stat and then could "tip" for another 1k or something. I still remember the beat I took to get knocked out. First of many.....fml
Your Mom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2012, 04:02 AM   #221
sketchy1
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
sketchy1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: kansas city, mo
Posts: 8,277
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Quote:
Originally Posted by Your Mom View Post
yep, first tourney i ever played was at the Grand and they wanted 5 or 10 bucks for another 1000 in chips. Believe you got 5k to stat and then could "tip" for another 1k or something. I still remember the beat I took to get knocked out. First of many.....fml
wait wait, was this the trip you and i took down there in '04 i believe it was? good lord it's been forever. i believe that was the tournament, i remember we played mostly at the grand. we ran around town with kelsey and his buddies i think... i might be getting my trips confused because i went down there 3-4 times over the years before i moved out to vegas.

if it was, then that was MY first live MTT too lol. i don't remember the addon though, but i'm sure you're right.
sketchy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2012, 04:38 AM   #222
driverseati
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
driverseati's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Def. Coordinator of 2015 WSOP Champ
Posts: 9,274
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Why is it so hard to publish a buyin that says something like 1400 + x house fee plus x dealer/staff toke, and not take anything out of the prize pool.
driverseati is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2012, 04:51 AM   #223
Mike Johnson
Former Pokercast Co-Host
 
Mike Johnson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Bilzerian's Beard
Posts: 6,865
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

just finished recording the show. Seth Palansky of the WSOP announced on the program that the practice of collecting 'staff appreciation add-on's' tableside will cease. He mentioned it may be too late to pull it for the Palm Beach Kennel Club events this coming week(coincidentally Sommerfeld's last event I believe) but that going forward all staff appreciation fees, if charged at all, will be done so at the cage and will be properly accounted for on the buy-in receipt.

He mentioned that the local casino creates a lot of the posters/flyers and other marketing materials themselves for their local events so policing that the 'staff appreciation add-on' gets mentioned in every promotional item is challenging.

Progress

1. Attempts will be made to make sure the 'staff appreciation fee' isn't hidden
2. Money will no longer be collected table-side to complete your starting stack
3. All fees will be collected at the cage at time of buy-in/included in online buy-ins
4. All fees will be accounted for on tournament seat assignments/receipts

Many other topics were discussed but I think some progress on the matter has been made. I forgot to bring up those damn $50 satellite coupons. Such an idiot.

1 point for the little guys.
Mike Johnson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2012, 04:55 AM   #224
doublejoker
Old News
 
doublejoker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,907
Mike, aren't the buyins and chipstacks across wsopc events supposed to be consistent for the main events.

Are u saying some venues' buyins will be listed as $1600 on wsop.com and other venues will now be listed at $1620?
doublejoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2012, 05:17 AM   #225
Mike Johnson
Former Pokercast Co-Host
 
Mike Johnson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Bilzerian's Beard
Posts: 6,865
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Quote:
Originally Posted by doublejoker View Post
Mike, aren't the buyins and chipstacks across wsopc events supposed to be consistent for the main events.

Are u saying some venues' buyins will be listed as $1600 on wsop.com and other venues will now be listed at $1620?
Sounds like the chipstacks will essentially be consistent(not sure if the staff add-on will remain 'optional'). As for buy-in amount, the prize pool portion will be consistent, but the final buy-in total will vary from $1600 to $1620 depending on whether the staff add-on is charged. Some stops may just stop charging it altogether. Time will tell, I guess.

Wasn't aware of any promise by the WSOP that the total buy-in, inclusive of fees would be identical for all WSOPc ME's. Where did you see that?
Mike Johnson is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:12 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online