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Old 02-13-2012, 12:00 PM   #176
WeebsUK
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...7&postcount=17


At the 2010 wsopc in tunica, we were ordered into our morning meeting and informed lil'degen was coming to speak with us. The rant continued for half an hour. He was telling us all the things he has ever done for the dealers, and how grateful we should be. He was infuriated for one of us leaking some secret information. Seems that someone was asked how the $10 "dealers appreciation" was split. The dealer proceeded to tell the guy that it is $7 to the dealers and $3 to "staff". The player then raised a stink over the fact that this should be publicly known and not passed off as a tip to the dealers.

Lil'degen was furious at all of us for spreading this information. He continued to go on about how we should be grateful for everything he has ever done for us and continued to give us a tongue lashing. Once it was over, we turned and looked at each other and said, "wait, he's pissed that someone told the truth and leaked his little secret".

The ego on this guy is unbelievable.


lil degen is jimmy sommerfeld
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Old 02-13-2012, 02:29 PM   #177
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Seth is coming on the program tomorrow night (02/14). 'Staff appreciation add-ons' at certain WSOPc stops will be included in the topics of discussion. Post any other WSOPc related questions ITT if you wish. I think posting WSOP related questions ITT would derail it so PM me if you want a WSOP related topic brought up.
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Old 02-13-2012, 02:31 PM   #178
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Quote:
Originally Posted by WeebsUK View Post
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...7&postcount=17


At the 2010 wsopc in tunica, we were ordered into our morning meeting and informed lil'degen was coming to speak with us. The rant continued for half an hour. He was telling us all the things he has ever done for the dealers, and how grateful we should be. He was infuriated for one of us leaking some secret information. Seems that someone was asked how the $10 "dealers appreciation" was split. The dealer proceeded to tell the guy that it is $7 to the dealers and $3 to "staff". The player then raised a stink over the fact that this should be publicly known and not passed off as a tip to the dealers.

Lil'degen was furious at all of us for spreading this information. He continued to go on about how we should be grateful for everything he has ever done for us and continued to give us a tongue lashing. Once it was over, we turned and looked at each other and said, "wait, he's pissed that someone told the truth and leaked his little secret".

The ego on this guy is unbelievable.


lil degen is jimmy sommerfeld
Don't know what the big deal is most circuit players have known it was 70/30 since it started.
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Old 02-13-2012, 02:38 PM   #179
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Don't know what the big deal is most circuit players have known it was 70/30 since it started.
He's encouraging customers to believe it all goes to the dealers because they're more likely to get tipped better and/or not get tipped outside the casino. He's blatantly supporting deceit and lying to customers about where their money is going, which is the entire reason this is a big deal to begin with. I'm surprised you just don't get it bigtex
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Old 02-13-2012, 02:55 PM   #180
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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Originally Posted by Lord_Strife View Post
He's encouraging customers to believe it all goes to the dealers because they're more likely to get tipped better and/or not get tipped outside the casino. He's blatantly supporting deceit and lying to customers about where their money is going, which is the entire reason this is a big deal to begin with. I'm surprised you just don't get it bigtex
Like I said almost everyone on the circuit knows the breakdown so I assumed most people that cares knows also. Never seen a dealer or a floor not tell when asked.
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Old 02-13-2012, 02:57 PM   #181
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

If the feds should ever license online poker, what's to keep this practice from spreading to the online community? The feds and potential gaming interests are surely looking at any and all ways to siphon off fees. Potentially the same scenario online with the same issue: choose either to pay for play, or don't. My guess is that most will play regardless of how the fees are structured. And they know this--just as the B&M's do.
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Old 02-13-2012, 02:59 PM   #182
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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Originally Posted by bigtex21 View Post
Don't know what the big deal is most circuit players have known it was 70/30 since it started.
you would think it wasn't unless you one of the many who are not regulars on the circuit..........but it was a big enough deal to jimmy. he called a meeting and yelled at all his dealers for letting the truth slip out.
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Old 02-13-2012, 03:05 PM   #183
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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Originally Posted by WeebsUK View Post
you would think it wasn't unless you one of the many who are not regulars on the circuit..........but it was a big enough deal to jimmy. he called a meeting and yelled at all his dealers for letting the truth slip out.
Just wonder if the dealers would prefer it not be collected at all like at most events and just get to split the 3% plus whatever players give when cashing?
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Old 02-13-2012, 03:27 PM   #184
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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Just wonder if the dealers would prefer it not be collected at all like at most events and just get to split the 3% plus whatever players give when cashing?
Seems you feel there are only two options for players. Play under corrupt, deceptive and extortionist conditions or don't play. Most feel that fixing option A so you don't have to resort to option B is a practical third option, especially when talking about regional events where there aren't many other tournamant series in the area for players to choose from.

Interesting that these last-second 'staff fees' aren't levied at WSOPc cities like Vegas and AC where there is a lot of competition and players can simply choose to not play.

Also, I'd say that a large % of the players that enter these events are local players, as opposed to people who travel the circuit. Those players would have no idea that a similar shakedown went down at the previous PTC-run WSOPc stops because they weren't at those events or perhaps the other WSOPc stop they did attend wasn't run by PTC and therefore the last second 'staff fee' shakedown never took place.

Finally, only a small portion of people's complaint is that fact that it is hidden from all practical marketing materials other than structure sheets. The manner in which it is collected and the lack of accounting is equally problematic.
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Old 02-13-2012, 03:40 PM   #185
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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Originally Posted by Mike Johnson View Post
Seems you feel there are only two options for players. Play under corrupt, deceptive and extortionist conditions or don't play. Most feel that fixing option A so you don't have to resort to option B is a practical third option, especially when talking about regional events where there aren't many other tournamant series in the area for players to choose from.

Interesting that these last-second 'staff fees' aren't levied at WSOPc cities like Vegas and AC where there is a lot of competition and players can simply choose to not play.

Also, I'd say that a large % of the players that enter these events are local players, as opposed to people who travel the circuit. Those players would have no idea that a similar shakedown went down at the previous PTC-run WSOPc stops because they weren't at those events or perhaps the other WSOPc stop they did attend wasn't run by PTC and therefore the last second 'staff fee' shakedown never took place.

Finally, only a small portion of people's complaint is that fact that it is hidden from all practical marketing materials other than structure sheets. The manner in which it is collected and the lack of accounting is equally problematic.
The reason it is not done in AC is that addons ect are against gaming regulations
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Old 02-13-2012, 04:43 PM   #186
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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The reason it is not done in AC is that addons ect are against gaming regulations
seems like a pretty reasonable rule.
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Old 02-13-2012, 04:56 PM   #187
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Johnson View Post
Seems you feel there are only two options for players. Play under corrupt, deceptive and extortionist conditions or don't play. Most feel that fixing option A so you don't have to resort to option B is a practical third option, especially when talking about regional events where there aren't many other tournamant series in the area for players to choose from.

Interesting that these last-second 'staff fees' aren't levied at WSOPc cities like Vegas and AC where there is a lot of competition and players can simply choose to not play.

Also, I'd say that a large % of the players that enter these events are local players, as opposed to people who travel the circuit. Those players would have no idea that a similar shakedown went down at the previous PTC-run WSOPc stops because they weren't at those events or perhaps the other WSOPc stop they did attend wasn't run by PTC and therefore the last second 'staff fee' shakedown never took place.

Finally, only a small portion of people's complaint is that fact that it is hidden from all practical marketing materials other than structure sheets. The manner in which it is collected and the lack of accounting is equally problematic.
The reason AC doesn't have any type of addons is that it is against gaming regulations. But then both AC and Vegas are run in house so local dealers and staff don't require as much money since there is no travel expenses for them.
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Old 02-13-2012, 05:09 PM   #188
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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The reason AC doesn't have any type of addons is that it is against gaming regulations. But then both AC and Vegas are run in house so local dealers and staff don't require as much money since there is no travel expenses for them.
lol...you have no clue do you?

the only way i would make more money in a circuit event is if i worked 16 hour days. the amount of money per down is identical and sometimes lower than the amount i would make here in vegas. i even worked a crap circuit stop as a satellite floor in biloxi and broke even for the trip.

we are given numbers for each down at the end of the tourney, with absolutely no information of how the number was generated. we have no idea how much our % cut amounted to or how many add-ons were taken. we are told we can ask to see how much is tipped, but that is still under the control of the td's.

it is completely unregulated and at the mercy of the td....i.e. jimmy sommerfeld.

it is a despicable system and set up for corruption. the rumors and stories have been out their for years, but the majority of "regs" like you love sucking up to tournament directors and put the negative attacks down to disgruntled employees.

yes we are disgruntled, but for a reason. i have been fortunate enough to leave the bull**** behind me. as a dealer who has dealt the 50k horse event and espn featured tables, i am sure you would love me to deal your tables, but thanks to people like jimmy sommerfeld, the majority of the great dealers i know say a big **** YOU, to the circuit.

you guys are then stuck with the **** dealers you constantly complain about.

what a wonderful world
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Old 02-13-2012, 05:14 PM   #189
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

big tex, you realize if this was all done in the cage, these dealers could actually see receipts and actual figures right? when jimmy does the "tips" this way, they have NONE OF THAT.
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Old 02-13-2012, 05:28 PM   #190
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

bigtex reminds me of a penn state alum.
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Old 02-13-2012, 05:34 PM   #191
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Earlier in the thread the extra addon split was indicated as 65% dealers 35% staff. Is it that or 70% 30%. Or some other breakdown?
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Old 02-13-2012, 05:40 PM   #192
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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Earlier in the thread the extra addon split was indicated as 65% dealers 35% staff. Is it that or 70% 30%. Or some other breakdown?
Allen it is 70/30 and always has been.
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Old 02-13-2012, 05:41 PM   #193
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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The reason AC doesn't have any type of addons is that it is against gaming regulations. But then both AC and Vegas are run in house so local dealers and staff don't require as much money since there is no travel expenses for them.
You realize this makes this whole thing sound so much more shady. You can't claim on one hand that the staff add-ons are dealer tokes while at the same time justifying that they are charged on account of higher overhead on account of travel expenses. It's either an optional(lol) dealer/staff tip or it's a fee. It can't be both.

If these fees are in fact to cover higher expenses for regional events, just add it to the up front fees and make it $300+55 or $300 + $45 + $10 when people buy in.
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Old 02-13-2012, 05:41 PM   #194
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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big tex, you realize if this was all done in the cage, these dealers could actually see receipts and actual figures right? when jimmy does the "tips" this way, they have NONE OF THAT.
Venetian does it at the desk when you buy-in, and your receipt is stamped that shows you took the add-on, I personally don't have as much of a problem if it's done this way.

EDIT: bigtex what is your objection for paying your add-on when you buy-in and get a stamped receipt that shows you bought the add-on exactly? They also stamp the copy that is kept for casino records.
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Old 02-13-2012, 05:43 PM   #195
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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big tex, you realize if this was all done in the cage, these dealers could actually see receipts and actual figures right? when jimmy does the "tips" this way, they have NONE OF THAT.
In an ideal world yes but here we are dealing with casinos especially Harrahs greed if it comes thru the cage they will consider it is theirs example Hammond charges $350 vs $345 but do the dealers get any of the $5. No
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Old 02-13-2012, 05:43 PM   #196
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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Venetian does it at the desk when you buy-in, and your receipt is stamped that shows you took the add-on, I personally don't have as much of a problem if it's done this way.
ya there's nothing wrong with it that way. i would prefer that they just advertise their events with the addon already in the figure (just looked, it says $340 on the sheet despite it being $350). however, at the very least, you have documentation of the addon.
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Old 02-13-2012, 05:45 PM   #197
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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In an ideal world yes but here we are dealing with casinos especially Harrahs greed if it comes thru the cage they will consider it is theirs example Hammond charges $350 vs $345 but do the dealers get any of the $5. No
wait wtf? you're more worried about HARRAH'S stealing your money, with cameras rolling on them at all times, than an individual who has the means and opportunity to steal it from you 10x easier? are you serious right now? why don't you just quit arguing on behalf of jimmy because A) you're wrong B) you're losing the argument and C) you look like a complete moron every time you post something like this.

you're seriously worried that harrah's will dip their hand in here, but jimmy won't? LOL.
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Old 02-13-2012, 05:46 PM   #198
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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In an ideal world yes but here we are dealing with casinos especially Harrahs greed if it comes thru the cage they will consider it is theirs example Hammond charges $350 vs $345 but do the dealers get any of the $5. No
So you admit that PTC does it this way to work around their employer as opposed in conjunction with the WSOP? Sounds like a great working relationship.

Will be interesting to hear what WSOP reps will have to say when they hear that the reason PTC charges this staff add-on fee in the manner that they do is because PTC thinks that 'if we charged it at the cage, the greedy buggers at Harrah's would just keep it'.

Last edited by Mike Johnson; 02-13-2012 at 05:51 PM.
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Old 02-13-2012, 05:54 PM   #199
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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So you admit that PTC does it this way to work around their employer as opposed in conjunction with the WSOP? Sounds like a great working relationship.

Will be interesting to hear what WSOP reps will have to say when they hear that the reason PTC charges this staff add-on fee in the manner that they do is because PTC thinks that 'if we charged it at the cage, the greedy buggers at Harrah's would just keep it'.
They do it this way in order to see that it does go where it is supposed to. But Jimmy will be history after Palm Beach so no one should have any problems then. As far as me I would like to see the $10 dealer add on and the 3% hold for dealers and staff go away since both cost us players money.
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Old 02-13-2012, 06:13 PM   #200
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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They do it this way in order to see that it does go where it is supposed to. But Jimmy will be history after Palm Beach so no one should have any problems then. As far as me I would like to see the $10 dealer add on and the 3% hold for dealers and staff go away since both cost us players money.
so i'm reeeeeeeally confused, you want both ways to compensate the dealers to go away? are these games going to suddenly be dealt by the players?
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