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Old 02-06-2012, 01:58 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camz2895 View Post
dude it doesn't say that it is taken out of the prize pool. I had no idea that was the case either. Just wow
The 27 $50 vouchers have a $20 fee plus $5 staff appreciation. The $1350 is taken from the prizepool.

Early on people sell these for $20 since they won't be back for the super sat.
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Old 02-06-2012, 02:27 PM   #77
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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Originally Posted by doublejoker View Post
The 27 $50 vouchers have a $20 fee plus $5 staff appreciation. The $1350 is taken from the prizepool.

Early on people sell these for $20 since they won't be back for the super sat.
I'm confused. Are you saying that the $50 vouchers are actually $25 since $20 goes to fees and $5 to staff?
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Old 02-06-2012, 02:56 PM   #78
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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Top twenty seven (27) players will receive a $50 voucher good for the 5 PM Super on September 16, 2011. This voucher is good toward the buy-in, re-buy, or add-on. This voucher may be transferred, but has no-cash value.
Holy crap. Is this for real? Nowhere does it say in that explanation that the $1350 to pay for the vouchers comes out of the prize pool or that juice and tips will be added to or taken from the voucher.

Is this for real? How many events(and which ones) does this $1350 get taken out of? I notice in the example used above it was only a $345 buy-in event. Are you kidding that they take $1350 out from the prize pool to and give vouchers to the top 27 players who may or may not ever use them and then there is further juice of 50% charged on the vouchers that no one even wants in the first place.

If this is true, does this happen at all WSOPc events or just the ones run by PTC? This seems equally egregious as the staff appreciation add-on if not worse.
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Old 02-06-2012, 03:06 PM   #79
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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Originally Posted by Mike Johnson View Post
Holy crap. Is this for real? Nowhere does it say in that explanation that the $1350 to pay for the vouchers comes out of the prize pool or that juice and tips will be added to or taken from the voucher.

Is this for real? How many events(and which ones) does this $1350 get taken out of? I notice in the example used above it was only a $345 buy-in event. Are you kidding that they take $1350 out from the prize pool to and give vouchers to the top 27 players who may or may not ever use them and then there is further juice of 50% charged on the vouchers that no one even wants in the first place.

If this is true, does this happen at all WSOPc events or just the ones run by PTC? This seems equally egregious as the staff appreciation add-on if not worse.
Mike, all of the WSOPc events that I've been to (Bossier Ciy, Tunica and Southern Indiana) do this. If you look at the structure sheets, it states that the "Top 27 players will receive a $50 voucher." Nowhere does it say that the $1350 for these vouchers comes out of the prize pool. On top of that if you go to the WSOP website and look at an event and add up the winnings, it is $1,350 short of the "prize pool."
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Old 02-06-2012, 03:41 PM   #80
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

not that i ever finish in the upper 27 or even cashed a wsopc for that matter...but this is astounding. I always assumed those vouchers were courtesy of harrah's...(lol me). How can they take that out the prize pool without saying anything? WSOPc is just running amock with no checks and balances
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Old 02-06-2012, 03:43 PM   #81
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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Originally Posted by Ditch Digger View Post
I'm confused. Are you saying that the $50 vouchers are actually $25 since $20 goes to fees and $5 to staff?
It means the buy-in to the satellite, that those vouchers are good for, is $50+20 +$5.


They did all the same sh*t in Chester, i posted the link on page 3ish.
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Old 02-06-2012, 03:45 PM   #82
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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I'm confused. Are you saying that the $50 vouchers are actually $25 since $20 goes to fees and $5 to staff?
if that is true...absolutely mind boggling
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Old 02-06-2012, 03:51 PM   #83
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The vouchers are good towards the $50 +20+5 super. Addons and rebuys are $50 more. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
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Old 02-06-2012, 03:52 PM   #84
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

It's basically a way to try and insure their ME guarantee, which misses a lot anyway. But the casino will never come out of pocket for an overlay, they'll just take it out of your local room's BBJ.
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Old 02-06-2012, 04:08 PM   #85
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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you talking about this one?




unless there is an "added x" everything comes out of the prize pool
Wow you are either clueless or one of the thieves running this scam.
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Old 02-06-2012, 04:52 PM   #86
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Seems like the vouchers aren't at all circuit events. I looked at the Harrahs AC event and didn't seem to be any vouchers taken out of the prize pool.

So who is pocketing these unused vouchers? Surely they are nowhere close to be 100% used.
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Old 02-06-2012, 04:57 PM   #87
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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Originally Posted by Mike Johnson View Post
Holy crap. Is this for real? Nowhere does it say in that explanation that the $1350 to pay for the vouchers comes out of the prize pool or that juice and tips will be added to or taken from the voucher.

Is this for real? How many events(and which ones) does this $1350 get taken out of? I notice in the example used above it was only a $345 buy-in event. Are you kidding that they take $1350 out from the prize pool to and give vouchers to the top 27 players who may or may not ever use them and then there is further juice of 50% charged on the vouchers that no one even wants in the first place.

If this is true, does this happen at all WSOPc events or just the ones run by PTC? This seems equally egregious as the staff appreciation add-on if not worse.
Mike,

It happens at just the events run by PTC. They also pull 18 $50 vouchers out of the afternoon tournaments, and 9 $50 vouchers out of the evening tournaments. I remember sweating a $230 afternoon PLO tournament last year which had 45 runners, and had the 18 vouchers ($900 worth) pulled out of the prize pool (which was less than $8000 + vouchers). Many of the players receiving them had zero interest in playing the rebuy satellite several days later and sold them at a loss, and they didn't really seem too upset about doing so (perhaps because they didn't realize the money had come out of the prize pool, or perhaps because they were only really losing 25 or 30 bucks).

Jimmy has repeatedly justified this on twoplustwo by saying it creates a big field for the rebuy satties, so they can give a lot of seats away. To PTC's credit, they claim that the value of any unredeemed vouchers are added to the prize pool for the satty anyway.
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Old 02-06-2012, 05:00 PM   #88
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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Originally Posted by JackOfSpeed View Post
Mike,

It happens at just the events run by PTC. They also pull 18 $50 vouchers out of the afternoon tournaments, and 9 $50 vouchers out of the evening tournaments. I remember sweating a $230 afternoon PLO tournament last year which had 45 runners, and had the 18 vouchers ($900 worth) pulled out of the prize pool (which was less than $8000 + vouchers). A lot of these players, as you'd expect, had zero interest in playing the rebuy satellite several days later.

Jimmy has repeatedly justified this on twoplustwo by saying it creates a big field for the rebuy satties, so they can give a lot of seats away.
That's just a ****ty thing to do to a lot of people that won't be there the entire series. Seems like it's just a huge ploy for them to get their numbers to look good without giving 2 ****s about the players.
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Old 02-06-2012, 05:03 PM   #89
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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Originally Posted by iamthepush View Post
Don't get what?

I've played at 2 circuit stops, Bossier City and Durant. I looked at the structure sheet before I went and in black and white it says





I get that people don't like to pay rake much less higher rakes, I don't either. But to complain that they didn't know about it ahead of time is their own fault. These were the first tournaments I'd ever played in and I knew what to expect.

Poker tournaments, keno, horse racing and sports betting are the only areas you will get a receipt. Craps, cash poker, BJ ect you don't get a receipt. I don't see what all the fuss is about for not getting a receipt for the staff appreciation. If you win a SnG and give the dealer 10 or 20 bucks she doesn't write you a receipt (after all you are a prof poker player that keeps track of expenses)

Not knowing where the money is going. WHO CARES? Unless you are a dealer or staff member why care?
YOU REALLY DON'T GET IT.

the recreation player DOES NOT open up the WSOP site, and look up the structure first. you can sit here arguing that they do but you're wrong, 90% of people show up and have literally no idea what the structure is or a vague understanding of it. and if you really think fish read all the fine print at the bottom you're 100% wrong. it's totally asinine to expect people to always read the fine print in this situation, because it's just not gonna happen.

this is on top of the fact that it's NOT UNIFORM with other circuit stops, and there is NO paper trail at all. jimmy could very easily be pocketing all this money because we as players have no idea where the money went, even the dealers and other staff members have no idea (unless they were direct beneficiaries, as someone else alluded to only 3 of the 27 floorpeople getting paid out).

i love that there's always one moronic guy in these threads who doesn't take 2 seconds to think about the implications that literally every other reply have taken into account. do you REALLY just blindly trust these *******s to not steal from us and the dealers?
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Old 02-06-2012, 06:16 PM   #90
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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Originally Posted by smooth101 View Post
Wow you are either clueless or one of the thieves running this scam.
don't get me wrong, I don't like having to put in an extra $10 or $20 so I'm not at a disadvantage when it starts but to sit here and cry about "how do we know who's getting the money" or "I can't files my taxes b/c I didn't get a receipt for the dealer add on" is pretty rahtard.

If you want to ***** about getting squeezed for another 10 bucks then by all means do it. But you can't say you didn't know about it. I am closer to a rec player than anything else and I knew about this. Do I agree with it, not really (who WANTS to pay more money?). Do I get the add on? Dang right, I need all the help I can get.
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Old 02-06-2012, 06:20 PM   #91
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Is FTP running it?
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Old 02-06-2012, 06:22 PM   #92
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

It's no surprise you have a 2011 join date.
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Old 02-06-2012, 06:31 PM   #93
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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Originally Posted by iamthepush View Post
don't get me wrong, I don't like having to put in an extra $10 or $20 so I'm not at a disadvantage when it starts but to sit here and cry about "how do we know who's getting the money" or "I can't files my taxes b/c I didn't get a receipt for the dealer add on" is pretty rahtard.

If you want to ***** about getting squeezed for another 10 bucks then by all means do it. But you can't say you didn't know about it. I am closer to a rec player than anything else and I knew about this. Do I agree with it, not really (who WANTS to pay more money?). Do I get the add on? Dang right, I need all the help I can get.
lol you're a clown dude, please quit posting ITT you're so far off base it's ridiculous
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Old 02-06-2012, 07:53 PM   #94
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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Originally Posted by NickMPK View Post
Jimmy Sommerfeld has never run any of the WSOPC tournaments in AC to my knowledge, and I believe no tournament in AC can charge this fee.
They will take a flat 3% out of the prize pool for staff (even this deduction is a relatively recent change to the gaming regulations there).
I have played many Circuit events at both Harrah's and Caesars in AC, and always found them to be very well-run. But I boycotted the WSOPC in Chester last year for exactly this reason (as well as additional shady stuff they were doing with the prize pool in that series).
NickMPK,

Thanks for responding to my post. Perhaps I won't cancel my reservations with Caesar’s and go ahead and play all them events I have lined up. I knew about and remember NJ passed the law so that Casinos can pull out 3% for the dealers. I'm OK with that, but this BS about withholding 40% of my chip stack until I pay them their ransom just sends me over the edge.

You're right, the WSOPC at Caesar’s AC is a very well-run tourney series and the room it's held in is very nice.

As far as the WSOPC at Chester, I've decided to skip it. I read through pages 114 & 115 of this thread: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/19.../index114.html I read about some of the shady stuff that’s going on there and I don’t want any part of it. I was looking forward to playing Chester WSOPC series and it would have been my first time, but no thanks. I’ll pass on it. Shady stuff just turns me off, I’ll just skip it and play the Delaware Park Classic that’s coming up; it’s a well-run series and the staff are nice and professional.
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Old 02-06-2012, 08:30 PM   #95
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

The most transparent thing is to have one fee. $1455 + $165 fee for the main event. $97 + $38 fee for the smallest buyin

I don't blame WSOPC for hiding the fees. They would get significantly smaller fields if people realized how much they were paying. No way lots of people are playing in the $100 tournaments if they realize how much they are paying.

You could make the argument for less fees but there is no way that will happen without also speeding up the structure. Sure the fees are outrageous with WSOPC but at least the structures are good. Alot of recreational players drive to these events and want to start with 400bbs (main event)....The first few levels are not a good use of time for the serious player and require tons of extra dealer time but the recreational players want to be guaranteed some play if they are going to make the drive. It's all about making the recreational players happy because if they come so will the pros.

So basically WSOPC is charging more than other tournaments for providing better structures (which most players want) but the only way they can get away with it is to be deceptive with the fees. Generally the Pro's know what's going on so it's rec players who believe they are playing in 'awesome' poker tournaments while it turns out they are just getting what they pay for.
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Old 02-06-2012, 09:03 PM   #96
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

If you're looking to avoid WSOPC stops that take $50 vouchers from the prize pool:

Now - Harrah's Tunica
Feb. 16-25 Palm Beach (including 81 each opening flight from the $555 $1,000,000 guaranteed event)
March 15-25 Harrah's Rincon (no structure sheets, but there's a $70 super with 20 ME seats guaranteed)
April 12-20 St. Louis (no structure sheets, but $70 super satellites)

All of these tournaments are run by Poker Tournament Consultants.

Last edited by Kevmath; 02-06-2012 at 09:40 PM. Reason: removed Council Bluffs as apparently they're not being run by PTC
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Old 02-06-2012, 09:17 PM   #97
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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Seems like the vouchers aren't at all circuit events. I looked at the Harrahs AC event and didn't seem to be any vouchers taken out of the prize pool.
You will never see this sort of funny business in AC. The gaming commission won't allow (nor will they allow "staff appreciation" add-ons). I know everyone complains about various things prohibited by NJ gaming (like straddles and officially recognized tournament chops), but they are good for some things.
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Old 02-06-2012, 10:12 PM   #98
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

We have already put out a request to PTC to come on the show to discuss this subject.
If anyone from the WSOP/Caesers management would like to post ITT, I think now would be a good time to clarify.

1) Is the WSOP aware of the magnitude of shady hidden fees that exist in your circuit events that are contracted out to PTC?

2) Assuming the answer to #1 is yes, why do you allow such practices since you don't employ either the mandatory 'staff appreciation add-on' or the '$50 satellite vouchers' in events that are not run by PTC?

3) Do you not agree that when you are running a tournament series, the fees, structures, add-ons, tips, vouchers and monies withheld from the prize pool should be consistent and uniform across all stops on the WSOPc, especially when there are players choosing WSOPc events over other options in hopes of winning a place in the year-end National Championship event.

4) Are you OK that PTC does not provide any receipts for these add-ons?

5) Do you feel players have the right to know actually who ends up with the money for these additional fees that are being collected?

6) Why are these differences in fees, add-ons and starting stacks from one stop on the series to the next not clearly advertised and transparent on ALL marketing materials such as posters, magazine ads and detaile online ads. (not just structure sheets on site or a PDF on wsop.com)

7) Do you understand that this reflects equally poorly on the WSOP for not stepping in to forbid these practices at events with your name attached to them as many players will not differentiate between a PTC-run WSOPc event and a non PTC-run WSOPc event?

Mitch Garber? Ty Stewart?
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Old 02-06-2012, 10:22 PM   #99
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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Originally Posted by Mike Johnson View Post
We have already put out a request to PTC to come on the show to discuss this subject.
If anyone from the WSOP/Caesers management would like to post ITT, I think now would be a good time to clarify.

1) Is the WSOP aware of the magnitude of shady hidden fees that exist in your circuit events that are contracted out to PTC?

2) Assuming the answer to #1 is yes, why do you allow such practices since you don't employ either the mandatory 'staff appreciation add-on' or the '$50 satellite vouchers' in events that are not run by PTC?

3) Do you not agree that when you are running a tournament series, the fees, structures, add-ons, tips, vouchers and monies withheld from the prize pool should be consistent and uniform across all stops on the WSOPc, especially when there are players choosing WSOPc events over other options in hopes of winning a place in the year-end National Championship event.

4) Are you OK that PTC does not provide any receipts for these add-ons?

5) Do you feel players have the right to know actually who ends up with the money for these additional fees that are being collected?

6) Why are these differences in fees, add-ons and starting stacks from one stop on the series to the next not clearly advertised and transparent on ALL marketing materials such as posters, magazine ads and detaile online ads. (not just structure sheets on site or a PDF on wsop.com)

7) Do you understand that this reflects equally poorly on the WSOP for not stepping in to forbid these practices at events with your name attached to them as many players will not differentiate between a PTC-run WSOPc event and a non PTC-run WSOPc event?

Mitch Garber? Ty Stewart?
Mike,

Thanks for staying on this as the 2p2 podcast is one of the few media outlets that doesn't take ad money from WSOP.
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Old 02-06-2012, 10:41 PM   #100
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Thanks Mike. I hope they come out and give their side of the story, should be interesting. You, Adam and Bunner keep up the awesome work!
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