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Old 02-05-2012, 02:40 AM   #26
Youre A Towel
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Re bigtex's 70/30, please note that this is reportedly 70 percent STAFF 30 percent dealers, not the way he made it sound in his post.
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Old 02-05-2012, 03:04 AM   #27
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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Originally Posted by sketchy1 View Post
^^this

i 100% trust money that is paid for and players have a RECEIPT to show it was paid for.

i don't trust some guy named jimmy who won't give me a receipt and uses some company to outsource his work and collects money in shady ways and never did.
Anyone that asks for a receipt gets one.
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Old 02-05-2012, 03:05 AM   #28
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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Originally Posted by Youre A Towel View Post
Re bigtex's 70/30, please note that this is reportedly 70 percent STAFF 30 percent dealers, not the way he made it sound in his post.
It is 70% to the dealers and 30% to the staff
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Old 02-05-2012, 03:20 AM   #29
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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Originally Posted by bigtex21 View Post
It is 70% to the dealers and 30% to the staff
would you be ok if there was a procedure before every tournament where you had to walk up to each floor person (who get to institute this rule unilaterally) and hand them 1$ before you can sit down and play?

because that's exactly what this is, they just made it a little more convenient for you to do
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Old 02-05-2012, 03:35 AM   #30
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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Originally Posted by FatalError View Post
would you be ok if there was a procedure before every tournament where you had to walk up to each floor person (who get to institute this rule unilaterally) and hand them 1$ before you can sit down and play?

because that's exactly what this is, they just made it a little more convenient for you to do
I like the idea of not feeling pressured to tip when cashing since the dealers and staff have already received payment.
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Old 02-05-2012, 03:38 AM   #31
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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Anyone that asks for a receipt gets one.
WHY NOT GIVE ME ONE WHEN I SIGN UP AT THE CAGE IN THE FIRST PLACE? why is this so hard to understand? doing it in this fashion allows for money to be pocketed EASILY. why do you just blindly trust someone who is doing business this way?
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Old 02-05-2012, 03:40 AM   #32
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Its a bad practice for any kind of respectable casino/tournament series. Something connected to the WSOP/WPT/EPT/whatever should not be doing such scams. Please leave that too the worthless casinos no one wants to go to, not the something like the WSOPc.
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Old 02-05-2012, 03:52 AM   #33
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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I like the idea of not feeling pressured to tip when cashing since the dealers and staff have already received payment.
This is about the most thrashed logic I've heard in a long time.
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Old 02-05-2012, 03:57 AM   #34
Jimmy Sommerfeld
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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Originally Posted by smooth101 View Post
Was Jimmy responsible for the dealer bonus tip as well?
yes
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Old 02-05-2012, 04:10 AM   #35
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

It's this way all over Florida....none of the rooms post how much the "actual" rake is.....you sign up for a $100 tourney.....pay a $10 "dealer" bonus....and they still take $25-$35 from the $100 for the house....seems very hard for the players to beat that .... LOL

Just wait until they regulate the online stuff...wow

Jimmy...why do the poker rooms in Florida treat the players so badly
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Old 02-05-2012, 04:29 AM   #36
Jimmy Sommerfeld
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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Originally Posted by itsahardgame View Post
It's this way all over Florida....none of the rooms post how much the "actual" rake is.....you sign up for a $100 tourney.....pay a $10 "dealer" bonus....and they still take $25-$35 from the $100 for the house....seems very hard for the players to beat that .... LOL

Just wait until they regulate the online stuff...wow

Jimmy...why do the poker rooms in Florida treat the players so badly
its not just Florida. Its everywhere...The poker boom caused all of the world to say...wow I wanna piece of that pie. Casinos, Players and staff....we all want a piece. WE ALL (including players) want as much as we can get. Its that kind of business. Its why im retiring...spend time with the family ...to enjoy life not money! PLAY TIGHT, as long as you play fewer pots and win a bigger percentage of the time...Pot Raked games can be beat. Good luck!
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Old 02-05-2012, 04:34 AM   #37
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Geez another scamming/theft type thread on 2+2, its getting a little bit ridiculous now.
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Old 02-05-2012, 04:46 AM   #38
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Jimmy has responded in his retirement thread and in the palm beach kennel club thread fwiw.
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Old 02-05-2012, 04:53 AM   #39
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Yep Jimmy and his crew are here in Tunica now. I asked for a receipt today for the $10 add on and they looked at me like I was crazy! One floorman actually told me today that it "was like tipping the valet, you don't get a receipt for that". After tracking down some higher ups I eventually was able to get my receipt, but damn it was such a hassle. Jimmy's wife Teresa was the one who wrote it out for me and told me that I was the first person to EVER ask for such. I actually find that hard to believe but maybe im the first that she personally has seen. I posted about this today in the WSOPC Tunica thread in MTT Live. They try to tell players that these add ons are " optional" but they really aren't because they put you at such a disadvantage if you don't take them. 30% of your starting stack is withheld for this for the $345's that Jimmy's crew runs on the WSOPC.
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Old 02-05-2012, 05:47 AM   #40
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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Originally Posted by FatalError View Post
http://pokercast.twoplustwo.com/list...hp?episode=207

Fast forward to 65 minutes in as details of hidden "staff appreciation fees" at all WSOPc events run by Poker Tournament Consultants (a company owner and operated by now retiring WSOP floorman Jimmy Sommerfeld). Great explanation at the end by Matt Savage as to why these are terrible for poker.

The basic idea is that when you sat down at your table some % of your stack is held in the dealers well and you are required to pay extra rake, in cash, with no receipt and no accounting of where it goes. This is without a doubt a MANDATORY addition rake on all events. Current estimations show that PTC collected ~1 million USD during the course of the circuit season, enriching themselves substantially beyond their expected compensation from Harrahs for providing their services.

This type of predatory behavior by those people running poker tournaments is destroying poker, money is being collected by the fistfulls from the lower rungs of the poker world and taken out never to return, all by the staff running the events. Just like everywhere else in America today the 1% that controls the infrastructure of the poker world are taking as much as they can get away with from the rest. If we allow this to be swept under the rug and don't make a big deal about this they'll just take more from us next year and so on until they've sucked the poker world dry.
Just want to make it clear that while I do not like the practice of bonus chips and have them removed from any tournament series I have control over I don't have any 1st hand knowledge of any "scamming" going on. I prefer to have the fees and service charge in the ad and structure sheets and believe that others should also.

The idea of additional chips for a fee seems mandatory and not voluntary and I would like to add that players demanding more and more starting chips has a lot to do with increasing fees/service charges.
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Old 02-05-2012, 07:07 AM   #41
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

I've always felt like it's the restaurant that adds gratuity. Fine, you gambled, I probably woulda tipped more, but since you already collected your tip, I ain't tipping more.

If there's shady **** goin on though that is nonsense, and y'all are totally right about the lack of receipts.

Also, the $10 on the $300's is way too steep.
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Old 02-05-2012, 07:27 AM   #42
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Wow pretty missed up.
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Old 02-05-2012, 10:01 AM   #43
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

They also worked their magic at Harrahs Chester last year. You can read about it on pages 114 and 115 of the chester B&M thread. (prob easier to just find my posts on those pages)

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/19.../index114.html
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Old 02-05-2012, 11:04 AM   #44
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

other than it being another fee for a tournament I don't see what the big deal is. It's not like a portion of the $20 (for an extra 5,000 chips in the cME) is going into the prize pool.

WSOPc ME total cost $1620

$1500 to prize pool less 3%, so $1,455 to prize pool

$100 rake, entry fee

$20 tip for an extra 5k in chips.

When I buy a candy bar from the gas station, I don't care what they're going to use my $1.23 for as long as I get what I purchased. When you go to a club or bar you don't get a receipt for every drink you buy and you don't get a receipt for the tip you leave the bar tender either
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Old 02-05-2012, 11:06 AM   #45
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

During the St Louis circuit events and the recent December tournament series they did not ask for additional tips for chips at the table, instead they raked the cash games an additional $1 per hand throughout the tournament. When I asked why, they said it was to help pay for expert tournament staff. This money is going directly to Harrah's for distribution to who knows where. I emailed Dennis Phillips about this and requested an explanation on his radio show, his response was something like what a bargain we get at Harrah's, we should be thankful. Harrah's St Louis is a 25 table room, $1 extra per hand played throughout the tournament, no explanation where the money goes, Harrah's directly involved. That's a lot of hands over a 10 day period. Would be nice to at least know if the dealers got their share.

At the Venetian Deepstacks series they also charge an additional fee. They are upfront about it, give you a receipt, have shufflers at every tournament table, give you a $10 food comp per entry (and a free lunch at the Oct series), and have excellent staff and dealers.

Harrah's could take a few lessons from the Venetian.
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Old 02-05-2012, 11:22 AM   #46
patthecat35
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

I'm not sure what some people are talking about regarding tips. We still had the tip box shoved in our face when we cashed (after pre-tipping 3-5% with additional chips, and having another 3% taken from the prize pool).
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Old 02-05-2012, 12:11 PM   #47
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

My issue here isn't that they are collecting a staff add-on or that it might never be reaching dealers.

The real problems are that it is being collected in an unscrupulous manner.

They are straight up pulling a bait and switch on players.
I'm surprised no one has thrown a fit when asked for another $10 when they got to the table.

Aside from tricking players, the money isn't accounted for which should worry dealers.
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Old 02-05-2012, 02:27 PM   #48
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthepush View Post
other than it being another fee for a tournament I don't see what the big deal is. It's not like a portion of the $20 (for an extra 5,000 chips in the cME) is going into the prize pool.

WSOPc ME total cost $1620

$1500 to prize pool less 3%, so $1,455 to prize pool

$100 rake, entry fee

$20 tip for an extra 5k in chips.

When I buy a candy bar from the gas station, I don't care what they're going to use my $1.23 for as long as I get what I purchased. When you go to a club or bar you don't get a receipt for every drink you buy and you don't get a receipt for the tip you leave the bar tender either
Too bad I can't just drink for a living huh
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Old 02-05-2012, 03:09 PM   #49
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Too bad I can't just drink for a living huh
I have friends that were in Realtors during the housing bubble. Some still are some aren't.
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Old 02-05-2012, 04:45 PM   #50
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Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

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Originally Posted by patthecat35 View Post
I'm not sure what some people are talking about regarding tips. We still had the tip box shoved in our face when we cashed (after pre-tipping 3-5% with additional chips, and having another 3% taken from the prize pool).
If Im lucky enough to cash any next week they can just move the tip box on down the line. Hope I win the main event and laugh at them while I dont tip a nickle.
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