Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

News, Views, and Gossip For poker news, views, and gossip

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-15-2012, 05:22 AM   #226
sketchy1
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
sketchy1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: kansas city, mo
Posts: 8,274
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

mike, thank you so much for your work! looks like it's us 1, bigtex 0.
sketchy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2012, 12:01 PM   #227
iamthepush
centurion
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 165
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

this sounds like a win for people in the industry (dealers/staff) if you thought that the money collected at the tables wasn't going to the people it was said to be going to)

and not a loss for the players as the optional $20 may in fact no longer be optional
iamthepush is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2012, 03:30 PM   #228
Dantes
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Dantes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bi-winning
Posts: 10,833
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigtex21 View Post
I like the idea of not feeling pressured to tip when cashing since the dealers and staff have already received payment.
grunch

I've cashed in a few wsopc events and every time they make me fill out a form and write down how much I want to give to the dealers ($0 because they already keep a big %). So yeah, I like the idea too. That's just not what happens...
Dantes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2012, 03:45 PM   #229
Todd Terry
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 16,301
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Johnson View Post
just finished recording the show. Seth Palansky of the WSOP announced on the program that the practice of collecting 'staff appreciation add-on's' tableside will cease. He mentioned it may be too late to pull it for the Palm Beach Kennel Club events this coming week(coincidentally Sommerfeld's last event I believe) but that going forward all staff appreciation fees, if charged at all, will be done so at the cage and will be properly accounted for on the buy-in receipt.

He mentioned that the local casino creates a lot of the posters/flyers and other marketing materials themselves for their local events so policing that the 'staff appreciation add-on' gets mentioned in every promotional item is challenging.

Progress

1. Attempts will be made to make sure the 'staff appreciation fee' isn't hidden
2. Money will no longer be collected table-side to complete your starting stack
3. All fees will be collected at the cage at time of buy-in/included in online buy-ins
4. All fees will be accounted for on tournament seat assignments/receipts

Many other topics were discussed but I think some progress on the matter has been made. I forgot to bring up those damn $50 satellite coupons. Such an idiot.

1 point for the little guys.
We have you to thank for these changes, Mike. Thanks for your work on this issue.
Todd Terry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2012, 04:26 PM   #230
Your Mom
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: grinding out a mediocre living
Posts: 12,976
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Quote:
Originally Posted by sketchy1 View Post
wait wait, was this the trip you and i took down there in '04 i believe it was? good lord it's been forever. i believe that was the tournament, i remember we played mostly at the grand. we ran around town with kelsey and his buddies i think... i might be getting my trips confused because i went down there 3-4 times over the years before i moved out to vegas.

if it was, then that was MY first live MTT too lol. i don't remember the addon though, but i'm sure you're right.
this was the first time i went - was just me and kelsey in '03.
Your Mom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2012, 04:51 PM   #231
doublejoker
Old News
 
doublejoker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,879
Seth palansky discusses this issue in depth with mike Johnson on the current podcast episode #209.

Discussion starts around the 98 minute mark.
doublejoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2012, 05:11 PM   #232
Sea Salt
centurion
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 147
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Good job Mike. One question though.

Why is the WSOP still allowing these fees? Why not just do away with them?
Sea Salt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2012, 06:26 PM   #233
FatalError
Fantasy Site Rep
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: @DraftKings
Posts: 8,185
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sea Salt View Post
Good job Mike. One question though.

Why is the WSOP still allowing these fees? Why not just do away with them?
Yeah, it's half a win IMO, the fees are still an insult to anyone who thinks about them and it's still unethical to have the salaried floor staff get a cut!

And yeah wish we coulda got an answer on the vouchers
FatalError is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2012, 06:35 PM   #234
doublejoker
Old News
 
doublejoker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,879
Quote:
Originally Posted by FatalError View Post
Yeah, it's half a win IMO, the fees are still an insult to anyone who thinks about them and it's still unethical to have the salaried floor staff get a cut!

And yeah wish we coulda got an answer on the vouchers
Seths responses to mike were much more civil than to you. I didn't get "the travelling staff needs this extra addon" explanation since most of ptc run events are at harrahs properties with inhouse staff, tunica for example.

Matt savage will be running the upcoming mgm grand series for example. He will probably bring a few people from commerce with him to run the event. Imagine the outcry if he charged an additional staff fee over the 3% to bring in his crew to run that event.

Last edited by doublejoker; 02-15-2012 at 06:40 PM.
doublejoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2012, 06:38 PM   #235
AdamSchwartz
Shippy McShiperson
 
AdamSchwartz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: 2 twins no cups
Posts: 8,525
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Quote:
Originally Posted by doublejoker View Post
Seth palansky discusses this issue in depth with mike Johnson on the current podcast episode #209.

Discussion starts around the 98 minute mark.
AdamSchwartz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2012, 06:28 AM   #236
doublejoker
Old News
 
doublejoker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,879
I guess Adam is mad I didn't mention him as well...
doublejoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2012, 04:51 PM   #237
AdamSchwartz
Shippy McShiperson
 
AdamSchwartz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: 2 twins no cups
Posts: 8,525
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Quote:
Originally Posted by doublejoker View Post
I guess Adam is mad I didn't mention him as well...
Not mad, just needed an excuse to post that gif.
AdamSchwartz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2012, 05:22 PM   #238
JasonInDallas
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Foothills
Posts: 6,899
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthepush View Post
the optional $20 (dealer toke addon for additional chips) may in fact no longer be optional (if the changes are instituted)
It never was "optional" for any semi-serious player, I mean come on, who's going to pass up 50% more chips for $20?
JasonInDallas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2012, 05:29 PM   #239
iamthepush
centurion
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 165
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonInDallas View Post
It never was "optional" for any semi-serious player, I mean come on, who's going to pass up 50% more chips for $20?
my point is nothing is going to change for the players
iamthepush is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2012, 05:34 PM   #240
ClayRaiken
journeyman
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 398
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthepush View Post
my point is nothing is going to change for the players
your point is ignorant.
ClayRaiken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2012, 06:12 PM   #241
AdamSchwartz
Shippy McShiperson
 
AdamSchwartz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: 2 twins no cups
Posts: 8,525
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthepush View Post
my point is nothing is going to change for the players
You're not really a "big picture" type of guy are you?

Now that all fees are documented, players can make a more informed decisions on whether to attend or not. I suspect people will be less inclined to make the trip if some of these fees get to be too high, but that's up to the market.

Also, if there is any funny business going on that comes to an end. If the fees are going into someone's pocket, rather than divided amongst the staff it's a win for those employees that weren't getting their fair share.
AdamSchwartz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2012, 06:23 PM   #242
Mike Johnson
Former Pokercast Co-Host
 
Mike Johnson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Bilzerian's Beard
Posts: 6,865
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthepush View Post
my point is nothing is going to change for the players
what's going to change for the players

1) they will know about all fees BEFORE they buy in to the tournament at the cage, not after they have already bought in. As such, they will have the option to enter or not depending on whether they are comfortable with the fees that are being charged as opposed to someone putting their hand out looking for another $10/$20 AFTER they are already sitting at the table waiting for the cards to be dealt

2) they will have all fees accounted for on their receipt at time of buy in

3) they will presumably be made aware that the fee exists before they show up at the event as all fees will hopefully listed on promotional material for the event and not just in the fine print on the structure sheet

4) it alleviates the perception when cash is handed over at the table at the last minute that thost $10 and $20 bills could be ending up in anyone's pocket. If it's charged at the cage, players have more peace of mind that the money has a better chance of being distributed as it should be (obv no one knows for sure where the fees go).

That's a pretty good amount of change
Mike Johnson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2012, 06:23 PM   #243
Boiler_bd
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Boiler_bd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pushbot Extrodinair
Posts: 8,157
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

The best is when they give an extra $50 cash to satellite winners for the sole purpose of giving us the opportunity to tip the dealers. So they take $10 add on + 3% out of the prizepool and then add $50 to the seats (thus they give out less seats) with the intent of us to tip...

I always tip when tournaments have reasonable rake but will never tip in any tournament with a staff add on.
Boiler_bd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2012, 07:04 PM   #244
AdamSchwartz
Shippy McShiperson
 
AdamSchwartz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: 2 twins no cups
Posts: 8,525
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthepush View Post
smaller fields, that sounds good
What do you think the reaction to smaller fields because of high rake will be?

AdamSchwartz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2012, 10:31 PM   #245
MyTurn2Raise
Drug Free MVP
 
MyTurn2Raise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Descalso, Jay, and the pitcher
Posts: 40,588
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

another interesting thing about the Biloxi stop was you could pre-register online. Interesting enough, nothing about the $10 add-on when paying by CC online.
You sit down at the table and wham!

The pre-register ended up being a disaster. I made the final table of an event (not a sick brag - low 4 figure payout) and had registered online a few weeks earlier for the next event. Obviously these conflict with Noon start-up of new event and 2 or 3PM restart for final table of event the day before. I showed up early to try and get a refund. No quick mechanism. I had to talk to 4 different people. Someone did finally say it would get done, but it was going to be a lot more time and after the new event started. I had to weigh the options and decided for fear of losing my whole buy-in, I'd just multi-table live. My stack was live and in-play already by time staff was anywhere close to handling a refund for me despite showing up before 11AM. I ended up bubbling the money on the event (about a table away from the money), which is pretty good considering I missed two-thirds of the hands. A bit perturbed that unregistering wasn't an easy thing. Everything was sort of chaotic. My favorite was one person directing me to another, who directed me back to that original person.

I say this as a warning to let people know how unorganized these events are and so people don't preregister.
MyTurn2Raise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2012, 11:02 PM   #246
cl5150
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 81
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Has anyone contacted Harrahs about it? If people decide to not play because of it, of course effecting their bottom line, doubt they would let it continue. Also if you brought it up to the various state gaming regulators at the various venues, they might intervene as well as it's probably not part of what was originally approved. Just an idea, I'm drunk on margaritas eating Mexican food so this might not be as smart as I think it is...
cl5150 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2012, 11:35 PM   #247
semitop10
centurion
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: South Louisiana
Posts: 128
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Thanks Mike and all other who fought the good fight here, on twitter, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Johnson View Post

4) it alleviates the perception when cash is handed over at the table at the last minute that thost $10 and $20 bills could be ending up in anyone's pocket. If it's charged at the cage, players have more peace of mind that the money has a better chance of being distributed as it should be (obv no one knows for sure where the fees go).
This is the biggest thing, imo. There was never any legit justification for a system that basically resulted in giant bags of tens and twenties, with nothing more than an oral promise from tournament staff of "yea we'll account for it all accurately and distribute it the way it should be." anyone who spent at least 10 seconds thinking about that saw how shady it made the events, staff, and wsop brand look. glad it's gone.
semitop10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2012, 03:44 AM   #248
TookURCookie
grinder
 
TookURCookie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Evil Uoy Erehw
Posts: 493
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyTurn2Raise View Post
another interesting thing about the Biloxi stop was you could pre-register online. Interesting enough, nothing about the $10 add-on when paying by CC online.
You sit down at the table and wham!

The pre-register ended up being a disaster. I made the final table of an event (not a sick brag - low 4 figure payout) and had registered online a few weeks earlier for the next event. Obviously these conflict with Noon start-up of new event and 2 or 3PM restart for final table of event the day before. I showed up early to try and get a refund. No quick mechanism. I had to talk to 4 different people. Someone did finally say it would get done, but it was going to be a lot more time and after the new event started. I had to weigh the options and decided for fear of losing my whole buy-in, I'd just multi-table live. My stack was live and in-play already by time staff was anywhere close to handling a refund for me despite showing up before 11AM. I ended up bubbling the money on the event (about a table away from the money), which is pretty good considering I missed two-thirds of the hands. A bit perturbed that unregistering wasn't an easy thing. Everything was sort of chaotic. My favorite was one person directing me to another, who directed me back to that original person.

I say this as a warning to let people know how unorganized these events are and so people don't preregister.
PokerTickets allows you to cancel the purchase of a buyin/ticket up to 3 hours prior to the event starting.
TookURCookie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2012, 03:48 AM   #249
TookURCookie
grinder
 
TookURCookie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Evil Uoy Erehw
Posts: 493
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

It took a while and I was looked at like I had 3 heads a few times but I finally did receive a hand written receipt for my $10 "optional" addon today
TookURCookie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2012, 07:15 AM   #250
Michael DeMichele
Formerly TStoneMBD
 
Michael DeMichele's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 11,584
Re: From 2p2 Podcast, WSOPc middle man PTC collected ~1mm in undocumented fees during 2011-12 W

I think the dealers get paid a fixed hourly before the amount of entrants are determined. Any extra money taken out of the pool for dealers and staff probably goes to the staff, whoever that is. Whether player tips actually go straight to the dealers or not I don't know.

Does anyone know if the tips do go straight to the dealers? I'd like to find out for future reference.
Michael DeMichele is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:51 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online