except the $20 extra isn't ADVERTISED AT ALL! and it depends on where you go, some stops are run by someone else and they don't bait you for an extra $20 (oh which we have no account as to where it went, other than jimmy's spreadsheet which proves nothing!).

and this is all on top of the fact that they advertise a 20k stack for $1600, not $1620. where all that money has gone is anyone's guess, jimmy claims he paid it out but WE'LL NEVER KNOW because we don't have books that can prove it, just some BS spreadsheet jimmy keeps. that's not acceptable! that's over a million dollars last year we're just TRUSTING one man to pay out responsibly. we can't have that ****.

Two problems with these comparisons. Longmissedblind already alluded to the second one: you DO get a receipt from a bar if it's an expense you will need to submit as a deduction for tax purposes (e.g. entertaining a business guest). Similarly, a professional player -- of which there are many at a WSOP event -- will want to document his/her expenses for playing in the tournament.

As for the first, imagine paying $1.23 for your candy bar. You got what you wanted, right? But as you walk out, the clerk stops you. "Whoa fella, you can't take that with you," he says. "You want to eat that elsewhere, it's an additional fifteen cents."

He points to the candy display, where a small, inconspicuous sign reads:

ALL CANDY - $1.23 (incl. tax)
OPTIONAL TAKE-OUT FEE - $0.15

"This is ridiculous... I paid for my candy, and I'm taking it with me," you say.

"No one says you can't take it with you," goes the reply. "You just have to pay the fee. It's optional. If you don't want to pay the fee, that's your choice. But then you have to eat it in here."

Yeah, yeah -- it's a weird scenario, I admit. (You gave me a candy bar to work with.) But the point is, you're being hit with a hidden charge. It's small and technically optional, they'll say, but not paying it prevents you from getting full enjoyment of your purchase.

Same deal with this add-on. It's small and technically optional, but not paying it prevents you from getting full value for your tournament. As a result, as FE and Matt Savage have already stated, it effectively becomes a mandatory charge.

I don't hate the idea of having an optional "staff appreciation" fee. I just don't think it should affect tournament play as much as it does. Offer a different incentive.

Hell, given the way poker players love EV calculations, maybe organizers could arrange some setup wherein if a player chooses to pay the optional staff appreciation fee, he is not asked to leave a tip upon cashout. ("So I can pay $20 now. Or I can forgo it, but pay three percent of my prize when they strong-arm me for a tip, which they will.")

Kudos to Mike & Adam for bringing this issue to light (or at least to a larger audience) on the 2+2 Pokercast. I haven’t covered a WSOP Circuit event since they were televised by ESPN in 2006, so I can’t speak to any of these allegations directly. But here are my thoughts.

Asking players to pay additional money at the table for a full chip stack is a horrible practice that needs to stop. Immediately.

Whether or not the staff is honorable, it creates a situation where it is too easy to skim money off the top. I’m not saying that anyone involved in this controversy is skimming money, but the process of taking cash at the table is unacceptable.

Think of it another way -- if that money were going to the casino, do you think they would let their employees accept cash at the table without a receipt? Hell no. If you hand cash to a dealer at any other game in the casino, it gets announced to at least one other employee (pit boss) and then inserted directly into a lockbox.

(I’ve heard rumors that this difficulty in accounting for cash at the tables is one of the reasons that the WSOP discontinued rebuy events and replaced them with “triple chance” events back in 2009.)

People in this thread have claimed that some WSOP Circuit events have this cash-for-chips policy, and some don’t. I can’t speak from direct experience, but looking up the structure sheets online shows that WSOP-C Choctaw did have this policy while WSOP-C Caesars Palace did not.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Here’s a link to the PDF file with all the structure sheets for WSOP-C Choctaw (Jan 5-22, 2012):

WSOP-C Choctaw Structure Sheets

50 of the 51 events on that sheet charged a “Staff Appreciation” fee for a sizable portion of chips -- usually a $10 fee to get 25-40% of the full starting stack. (Players report a "Staff Appreciation" fee of $20 in the $1,600 Championship event, though nothing is listed on the structure sheet.)

Note that in at least one of their advertised schedules, there is no mention whatsoever of the additional “Staff Appreciation” fees, which are NOT included in the listed buy-ins. Here’s a link to the ad:

WSOP-C Choctaw Advertised Schedule

As a comparison, WSOP-C Caesars Palace (January 19-30, 2012) in Las Vegas didn't have any of these extra "Staff Appreciation" fees:

WSOP-C Caesars Palace Structure Sheets

- - - - - - - - - - - -

A lot of casinos around the country have cash-for-chips policies, but that doesn't make them right. I’ve run into them myself in low-stakes tourneys as far back as 2004. Nothing about them seems inherently illegal.

However, based on the player reaction, this has become a customer service issue. I think the players should take their questions directly to the WSOP team in Las Vegas. (And I will probably ask these questions if we don’t hear from them this week.)

1. Was the WSOP aware that some WSOP Circuit stops charged cash-for-chips at the table as a “Staff Appreciation” fee?

2. Does the WSOP have any policies about withholding part of a player's chip stack in exchange for a fee?

3. Does the WSOP have any policies about giving players receipts for all tournament fees?

4. While WSOP Circuit events are held in casinos that fall under different gaming commissions, shouldn’t they be run as consistently as possible, given that they all award points to the WSOP National Championship?

5. Would the WSOP like to take the lead for the poker industry and begin a standardized process where tournament fees are clearly broken down so players know where their money is going?

As an example for Question #5, I think players would prefer to see something like this for the structure sheets of WSOP events:

Event #2: $1,500 No-Limit Hold’em
($1,350 prizepool + $105 entry fee + $45 staff tip)

Event #45: $50,000 Poker Players Championship
($48,000 prizepool + $1,400 entry fee + $600 staff tip)

Event #55: $1,000,000 Big One For One Drop
($888,900 prizepool + $111,100 donation to the One Drop Charitable Foundation)

Event #61: $10,000 NLHE Championship (Main Event)
($9,400 prizepool + $420 entry fee + $180 staff tip)

I computed those numbers from information already available on the WSOP structure sheets, but it is buried in the fine print and disguised as percentages rather than dollar figures.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

The problem with the “Staff Appreciation” fee charged at the Choctaw WSOP Circuit events isn’t the size of the fee. But withholding 25-40% of a player's chips and then calling the fee "optional" is an insult. And taking cash at the table without a receipt opens the door for possible corruption.

If they simply added the $10 to the entry fee up front (paid at the cage and listed on the receipt), this controversy wouldn’t exist, and I doubt there would be accusations of corruption.

Players recognize that tournament fees are a cost of doing business. They just want the casinos to be clear and up front about what is a fee, what is a tip, and disburse the money accordingly. And they'd like a receipt that lists everything clearly.

In my mind, this isn't a legal issue, and I'm not accusing anyone of corruption. But it's clearly developing into a customer service issue.

Apparently 70% is going to the few hundred dealers at each stop and 30% is going to the 10-20 staff, doesn't seem very equitable when you consider the staff are salaried and not surviving off tips whereas the dealers are.

I felt slightly scammed when I played one of these events at Choctaw last year. I called up ahead of time to confirm the buyin, and the "staff appreciation" fee was a surprise when I took my seat.

They do this for every tournament at the Venetian, right?

They do it for the deep stack series at the least, so, I imagine the answer is 'yes.'

Venetian doesn't try to hide it. They ask every player when they register.

I don't take huge issue with staff add-ons in general.
It just means I won't be tipping.

I'd much rather deal with a tournament staff that makes it extremely clear what fees are being charged and what they are being used for than one who doesn't regardless of whether or not they are using staff add-ons.

Seeing PDFs that list $X NLHE with no fee breakdown is what tilts me.
This is an extension of that. Trying to hide fees from players at all cost.

If sommerfield is retiring, will this fee for chips happen at this wsop Caesars AC in March? I just made reservations 2 days ago for almost the entire series and not sure if I want to be part of this stuff. I was going to play Harrahs in Chester wsop as well, but after reading this thread and pages 114& 115 of that Chester thread, forget it. I'll just play Delaware park series instead. I'm going to think about it and may cancel Ceasars and just play Borgatas spring series instead. I'm tired of reading about all this fraudulent scum in poker. I'd hate to see WSOP lose its reputation like FullTilt did.

Anyway, if someone could let me know if his could continue into Ceasars I'd appreciate it. By the way, here is a link to report Sommerfield to the IRS: http://www.irs.gov/compliance/articl...180171,00.html

In a post here Jimmy posts what he claims to be the accounting for the staff appreciation bonus vs the 3% from the prize pool, and claims to show its breakdown by down and number of staff (27). The link is to an excel on dropbox confirmed safe to click on

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...4&postcount=64

Someone pointed out those numbers don't look right or seem to correlate to WSOP choctaw events, can someone look into this and see if they can make any sense out of that spreadsheet? It also lists 27 people splitting the staff bonus where in this following post it seems that at least at one stop the staff portion was shared by only THREE individuals. Which would be a nice 5 figure skim for each "staff" member beyond their salary.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=364

They don't hide it but they also don't put it on the receipt IIRC. I could be wrong about that and if so someone lmk and everyone ignore me. It not being documented makes me think something shady is going on with respect to who gets it.

My main problem with the fee is the fact that it's in the fine print and you can't get the extra $10 (or $20 for the main) accounted for in your receipt. The fees sort of do add up come tax time.

Also, have played a couple of circuit events and although the staff is generally good/professional and the tournaments are well run, some of these people aren't and are also insanely greedy.

Short story about another PTC traveling member. I was in Choctaw for the HU circuit event, ended up getting coolered in the round of 8 and missing some of the bigger money jumps so I understandably was pretty frustrated. Go to the cage to cash out, the asian lady with like wavy long brown/blond hair (I think she is like a floor person/manger for the group... I've seen her in Choctaw... Tunica.. and she travels with them) is there to cash me out. Gives me my payout, asks if I'd like to leave anything for the dealers/staff. (I don't because I was pretty tilted and my payout wasn't really a lot at all, didn't even warrant a tax form). Anyway, I leave the tip thing blank.. she noticeably like stares me down, and is very cold handing me the money. Didn't think anything of it, thought there was a decent shot I was reading way too much into it etc. Next day though, I am playing another tourney, ask a cocktail waitress for water... waitress disappears, but the same women who cashed me out yesterday comes to the table. Asks who got the water... I say me, I try to give her $1, she says something like 'why don't you tip the dealers who are working hard dealing these tournaments, give your dealer the $1'. I was really shocked she said that to me, it was clearly in reference to the previous day and it's so uncalled for. I didn't even say anything back I was so floored, the rest of the table started looking at me quizzically, it was just so uncalled for. I gave our deal the $1 and just moved on but it was so unprofessional.

Pretty absurd to charge a standard juice, charge hidden juice, then have employees ostracize you for not tipping. I'm not sure if the fact that I'm young played into it at all, but she was just so out of line. Got pretty deep in the main too and when I left I small tip I got pretty cold treatment. These people are so money hungry it's absurd. At the very least, have the fees viewable upfront.

Sounds very much as if this was someone who was getting a large chunk of these alleged tips for the dealers. Personal motivation to force you to tip more wouldn't be a factor if her percentage was irrelevant.

Jimmy Sommerfeld has never run any of the WSOPC tournaments in AC to my knowledge, and I believe no tournament in AC can charge this fee.
They will take a flat 3% out of the prize pool for staff (even this deduction is a relatively recent change to the gaming regulations there).
I have played many Circuit events at both Harrah's and Caesars in AC, and always found them to be very well-run. But I boycotted the WSOPC in Chester last year for exactly this reason (as well as additional shady stuff they were doing with the prize pool in that series).

Could you imagine if you paid your $10k buyin for the Wsop ME and when you sat down you only had 20k of your expected 30k stack and the dealer said to you, 'for an optional $125 you can have the rest of your stack'. People would have gone ape**** years ago. The $20 they are extorting on $1500 Circuit events is the exact same thing but because it's done at smaller profile casinos and they have kept the fees within that $10-20 sweet spot that is low enough that players won't raise a fuss over until now yet high enough that when you multiply it by a few thousand entries per circuit stop adds up to a six figure haul.

I forgot to pose this scenario on the show. What happens if a player, unaware of the staff add-on doesnt have $20 cash on them(left their wallet back at hotel etc.) and doesn't have any friends to spot them? Would they really be faced with stArting the event with 25% less chips than everyone else.

Needs to stop immediately. I've cashed in a WSOPc this year in 42nd place in a $345 event (my pocket aces ran into pocket Jacks). You can imagine the huge return that I got for 2 days of poker, as I netted $272 after taking out the additional $10 "staff appreciation." When I went to the cage to collect, the lady asked me if I wanted to tip the dealers. I thought it was comical and did not hesitate to tell her no.

Do you also realize that a lot of these events take out $1350 of each prize pool and give the top 27 players a $50 voucher to a main event satellite? This is advertised on the structure sheets as if it is added by the house, but when you do the math, it is taken out of the prize pool. I wonder if the "Staff Appreciation Fee" is collected in that $50 satellite.

I forgot about this voucher scam they ran as well, these were an outright raketrap scam

Wow at the voucher. How can you claim to run a tourney well and offer a voucher like that? I bet over half those never get cashed.

Do you get a reciept when you sit down and play BJ? and when you tip the dealer? didn't think so, and before you say "well they rate my play" from Total rewards site

you can document your expenses without a receipt. in conclusion you don't have to have recipes to file a tax return.

Right next to the snickers you bought is a king sized snickers, for only $.25 more your candy bar could be 33% bigger. What are you going to do? That's pretty messed up. Damn you Mars Corp.

you still get to play in the tournament even if you don't do the staff appreciation.

You don't get it.

Don't get what?

I've played at 2 circuit stops, Bossier City and Durant. I looked at the structure sheet before I went and in black and white it says

I get that people don't like to pay rake much less higher rakes, I don't either. But to complain that they didn't know about it ahead of time is their own fault. These were the first tournaments I'd ever played in and I knew what to expect.

Poker tournaments, keno, horse racing and sports betting are the only areas you will get a receipt. Craps, cash poker, BJ ect you don't get a receipt. I don't see what all the fuss is about for not getting a receipt for the staff appreciation. If you win a SnG and give the dealer 10 or 20 bucks she doesn't write you a receipt (after all you are a prof poker player that keeps track of expenses)

Not knowing where the money is going. WHO CARES? Unless you are a dealer or staff member why care?

In that first sheet it doesn't say the vouchers will be withheld from prize pool. It clearly should if you want to argue that it's transparent.

you talking about this one?


unless there is an "added x" everything comes out of the prize pool

dude it doesn't say that it is taken out of the prize pool. I had no idea that was the case either. Just wow

This type of predatory behavior is what is crumbling our SOCIETY.

Society is corrupted, man.