Thats great to hear there are some people out there that don't even play PLO but can watch them. I think after I did the first 4 episodes that contained mostly of hands, enough people got in touch with me and said they wished they could watch those but they just weren't into PLO enough to do it. Hopefully with the guest format they can now enjoy listen to it and maybe learn a bit from listening to the hands as they do come up.




Probably shouldn't quote every person that says something like this but it is much appreciated and one of the reasons I enjoy continuing to do them. There have been times that I sort of zone out into playing poker a bunch of hours and the thought of putting out something new isn't on my mind at all but posts like these and the messages I get from people keep me excited about putting out new content Thank you very much

Diggggggggggggger

Thanks for feedback. I thought we had a great dynamic together as well and I'm glad the balance I was going for is apparent to others.

I am super new to these live streams and google hangout, I think there has to be a way to do something like you suggest for the HH's but as of right now I am just not sure.

I do not want people listening that might not be 2p2 regulars to get the impression 2p2 is boring. As you said, I am on my computer for hours and hours, at that point for me it does get pretty boring. I probably should check out other sub forums much more than I already do, it would probably enhance the experience I have on here each day

I know its been months now but I finally have all the casts up on ITunes, you can subscribe here and it should auto-download when new episodes are out. This is by far the most asked thing I have gotten from people that don't have an hour or two to spend on the computer watching the video so hopefully now more will be able to give them a try. I will try harder in the upcoming episodes to make the HH's understandable by audio only and I think I did a decent job in the past episodes to make it understandable.

https://itunes.apple.com/podcast/chi...ts/id878814842



Also want to say that I will be live streaming a new episode tomorrow with my friend Stinggggggggger, we will be discussing HH's from the 4.2 million dollar Isildur1 match and much much more. Will be May24 and start around 10am-noon central us time if anyone wants to check it out live. Will post the link over on my twitter when its going on

hey joey

cheers 4 the reply.

btw this question was meant for you. why i called you doug, it must've been a freudian slip (if that's related).

would love to hear some advice on this (even though i know no strategy's allowed in the ep's (unless you get lefort back on ))

EDIT: I've already watched so I don't intend to go back in the near future but I go to the joeingram1 youtube page every few days to see if any new vids are out. And the lefort 1 isnt currently on there. Am I looking in the wrong place? (It's only I don't want to miss out on any content in the future)

Cheers

Joe, ur a boss. The community needs ppl like u!

I've listened to 2 1/2 episodes so far(both Doug ones and first half of Lefort one), and I've loved every minute of it. I just got to the part about nutrition/exercise(~1:12:00 mark), and I feel compelled to defend the 2p2 H&F board. I disagree with quite a few things Lefort said...

Note before I begin: I am fully aware that its 100x tougher to talk for 3 hours on a podcast than it is to write a post on a message board. I'm not trying to be a dick by nitpicking here; I find the topic fascinating and think we can have a cool discussion about it.


I think 2p2 is a useful source of information on a ton of topics, many of which one wouldn't expect online poker players to be well-educated on. The reason for this is that getting good at poker correlates with getting good at deductive reasoning, objectivity, and rational thinking. These skills are incredibly useful in discerning between conflicting information.

Conversely I'm not so sure that a forum of bodybuilders will have properly cultivated these skills. And I question whether their edge in experience is enough to offset this.

To demonstrate my point: Consider a topic that is equally unrelated to both poker and bodybuilding. If you wanted answers concerning that topic, would you be more likely to go to a poker forum or a bodybuilding forum? Why?

Come on, this is silly. First off, you're a poker nerd too- you can't get to your level in poker without being one. Secondly, its a completely unfair mischaracterization. The 2p2 H&F community includes several people competing in amateur/semi-pro lifting competitions, a guy who competes in those "outdoors games" things where they cut down trees, several ex-college athletes, an amateur boxer, several BJJ guys, and a ton of success stories.


Following this approach leads to the following 2 problems imo:

1. You will often times be getting advice from someone with significantly better genetics than you. What worked for them, may not work for you.

2. A lot of people use steroids, and due to their taboo nature they aren't going to immediately reveal their usage to a stranger. A non-user trying to keep up with a user is something that can lead to overtraining/injuries.


As such, I think a far better approach is to seek out people who have a body that you want, who started off at a similar place where you are now, who have similar genetics, and who you can trust to be upfront about their supplements/steroids. For me personally, I found a ton of people who fit this description in the 2p2 H&F community.



I agree that SS gets recommended a ton. However, I wouldn't say that SS is the overall philosophy of 2p2 H&F; Rather, I would say that there are 2 main philosophies and SS happens to adhere to both of them. These philosophies are:

1. For nearly all beginners and/or people on time constraints, full body exercises >>>>>> isolation exercises.

2. Linear progression.



I thought it was noteworthy that amidst Lefort's criticisms of 2p2 H&F, Joe kept asking for him to provide the listeners with:

And Lefort's only response was to have a realization that he needs to reframe his blog to better address these types of people.

My hypothesis is that Lefort is someone with really good genetics both in terms of body type and in terms of being able to find motivation to workout, and so he doesn't relate to these concerns. Therefore, if there was a forum(such as 2p2 H&F) which attempted to address these concerns, then its possible Lefort would be unable to appreciate its value.





Here I will attempt to answer Joe's questions using the principles I learned in the 2p2 H&F forums. This is an exercise routine that I have done myself and have had a lot of success with, and its aimed specifically at online MTT grinders who have very little time.....

Start off with a list of full body exercises: Air squats and pushups should be absolutely mandatory imo. Planks and burpees can be done safely and without any equipment, so those would be the next 2 I'd include. Pullups and kettlebell swings can be done once you purchase the equipment, and finally I'd include pistols(one-legged air squats) for the more advanced athletes. I'm sure there are more than this, but these are the staples of my exercise routine.

First step is learning to do these with proper form and full range of motion. If theres interest, I can post an IPhone video or I'd be willing to have people send me their own videos for a form critique. Next step is to start out with something easy. Lets assume a total beginner, I'd advise something like:

Monday: While playing MTTs, on the first tourney break do 5 pushups and 5 air squats. 2 hours later do it again. 2 hours later do it again.

Wednesday: Increase your workouts by a tiny amount in any way you'd like(but make sure its quantifiable). So maybe do 4 sets instead of 3. Or maybe do 6 reps instead of 5. Or maybe add in planks.

Friday: Increase your workouts in a similar manner.

Following Monday: Continue increasing your workouts using linear progression. As you get more experienced this can include less days off per week. Progress slower than you think is necessary, as most people have a tendency to want to make too big of jumps.

On days off(and perhaps on workout days as well) I'd advise at least 15 minutes of stretching/yoga/foam rolling. I personally like doing this + meditation before starting my daily grind.

The point is to start out so easy that you don't mind it at all. With just 5 pushups and 5 air squats, you can still have 4 minutes left on your tourney break for other stuff. Don't worry, eventually it can get incredibly tough(I remember during one Sunday grind session I did 12 sets of 45 pushups + 45 air squats + 45 seconds planking, and that was as hard as anything I've done in the gym). Whenever you notice it starting to get tough, its totally your call on how to progress: You can keep up the linear progression and get in amazing shape or you can stop the linear progression and stay in the decent shape you've already achieved by doing the same workout every time.




Anyway, hopefully this can spur some good discussion. Gonna finish up the podcast now, its been terrific so far.

Hey Assani, awesome stuff.. some really great points here and I don't want to half-ass a response so when I get some time I'll give my thoughts. I think I was really unfair given that I haven't even browsed the forum for years and even when I did, it wasn't very extensive. It's tough to do an off-the-cuff podcast interview style without saying some things that you look back on and think "that was a little off/harsh/misleading/etc.." This topic would definitely be one of them.

Lefort is a nerd to me and would be in most settings tbh. He's a jock amongst poker heads.

Looool. Bart goes in on female poker players

Listened to one of the WGCRider episodes, pretty solid. Good work guys.

Thanks for linking the latest live stream with Stinger in here centebakkie

Assani thanks for very in depth reply about what Lefort said. It sounds like I need to have you on one of my podcasts to talk about the poker life sometime. Your answer to the question I had posted to Lefort is great. Its the exact type of thing I was looking for to be able to maybe pass on to others that are trying to start being more active while not doing much else outside of playing poker.

Ralph C. I was thinking more about your idea to have 1 version of each episode be the full unedited live stream and another be highlights and the HH's we talked about. I think that is probably something I should be doing if the live streams are going to continue to run this long. I know when Joe Rogans new episodes pop up in my subs and I see they are 3 hours I become much less likely to listen. I'm sure this is going to happen when some people see a new episode or a random person comes across them and see's the length. It will add some extra time each week for me to edit them down but I think enough people out there will become more frequent listeners this way. Anyone have any thoughts on this if they think it is worth doing?

1

I think most of us have alot of nerd in us. Lefort is no exception to that

Agreed Joey...nothing wrong with nerds. I wasn't being facetious!

loved the lefort episode also were can I find the episode with krmont22

itunes #3 (ep 5)

People that need to be on the podcast: Sauce123, Phil Galfond, Bttech86, Jeans89.

^ agreed.

also d2themfi as i mentioned. also think isildr00n could be fun.

https://www.youtube.com/user/joeingram1/videos

Oh yea. Also, BERRI SWEET plays crazy get him on too.

Yeh get Leo Nordin on.

"I use the analogy: If you want to learn poker are you going to go to a bodybuilding forum?"

Yeah it's funny because I've actually discussed this topic a few times with people and my comment comparing bodybuilding/poker forums definitely doesn't hold much water for the reasons you stated. I'm not sure why I said it during the podcast, probably because at times I might have been reaching for exaggerations and such for a more entertaining/dramatic watch.

I guess a lot of my haste towards H&F from the podcast is rooted from my own experiences. In the past when I’ve tried to add it to the handful of forums on 2p2 I participate in, I found the level of elitism to be a real turn off. This tends to be the case in a lot of the 2p2 forums but for some reason it really rubbed me the wrong way to see so many of the seemingly respected H&F posters to just constantly be complete trolls and to have everyone raving about Starting Strength as if it’s the only way to workout. I think the first 3 or 4 blog-type threads I read were of someone trying to lose fat or build muscle (or both) and discussing about how they’re doing a hardcore strength/performance-based training regimen (with very little discussion of nutrition or cardio). So I extrapolated those experiences to forming a belief that the forum probably wouldn’t have much to offer me. Of course, I’m sure a lot of that is on me for not being patient enough to read more posts and spend more time with the forum. But I think the source for my general attitude towards the forum stems from those experiences. (Also, as an example… I just recently posted one of my blog articles in one of the H&F threads where I thought it might be appreciated by some and generate fruitful discussion, and literally the only response I got was something like “tl;dr, not enough naked women pics”.)



"So it doesn't make a lot of sense to be talking to a bunch of poker nerds about "How to get big, bro?"

I think I’m misusing the term “nerd”. When I say nerd, I’m not referring to mindset and approach to thinking and problem solving. I’m more or less referring to lifestyle. What I meant by that comment is that typically, the types of people at the elite tiers of the various realms of fitness are not the types of people to spend a lot of time on internet forums.

Of all the people I’ve learned the most from when it comes to bodybuilding, losing fat, gaining strength, feeling good, looking good, gaining stamina, performance, etcetc.. I can’t think of a single one that spends very much time on the computer, nevermind actually posting regularly in forums. I’m not saying that nobody posting in internet forums are going to have high levels of knowledge, I just mean that there’s going to be a lot better sources for people with much higher concentrations of people that know what they’re talking about.



"So I always tell people: Make friends at your gym. If you see a guy with a body that you want...you might end up making a friend or a workout partner"
I disagree with your points about it being a problem but I think your last point is good and quite valid. The points about it being a problem are similar to saying that you can’t learn something as a mid-stakes grinder from Phil Galfond because (1) Phil was born with a better brain than you for poker and (2) what works in Phil's games won’t work in your games. Although these points may be true, it’s pretty obvious that you can still learn a ton from a Phil Galfond video provided you appreciate context.

By farrrrrrr the people I’ve learned the most from have been people who work on developing their bodies for a living. Hands down, there’s no comparison. When someone devotes their entire lives (including time, energy, money, etc…) into something, they’re going to have a ton of knowledge and far more than someone who just does it as a hobby. Regardless of whether they have great genetics or take PEDs, they’re going to be able to teach you a wealth of knowledge that you simply just won’t get from an online forum or pretty much anywhere online. These people are very aware of the effects of genetics and PEDs, and advice from them will come with an appreciation for these things as well.



"Theres more to working out than Starting Strength...going into the gym to squat 225lbs five times a few times and then benching whatever and then leaving...I've never been a huge fan of that approach."


Yeah I mean this is definitely my bad for way over-generalizing my understanding of what the H&F boards are like. I think again, a lot of my attitude here comes from personal experience. I’ve had at least 5+ pro poker playing friends I can think of that have come to me for advice on how to tweak their SS regimen for better results only for me to point out that SS is an incredibly sub-optimal approach for achieving their goals and that they're wayyyy under-appreciating their non-gym factors like nutrition, recovery, rest, lifestyle, etc..


I actually completely misinterpreted Joe’s question here. I was under the impression he was basically asking me for a bit of a summary of my blog (because we had been discussing/promoting my blog) which tends to be a little more technical. So I was basically just completely unaware of what the actual task was, likely from getting tired and not having much sleep the night before the podcast.

Your point about genetics is definitely valid. Although, it took me 3-5 years of being an avid “hard-gainer” try-crazy-hard-but-still-fail lifting enthusiast before meeting people (at the gym! ) that showed me what it would actually take for me to gain muscle and significantly change my physique. I definitely don’t have good genetics for bodybuilding, but your point about having the genetics/personality for finding motivation is very true. I find it tough to relate to some of the hiccups that people have when starting out on a journey to improve their health in some way (discipline, lack of motivation, etcetc..) and that’s something I plan to tackle in upcoming blog articles. So you make a great point that I can definitely under-appreciate some of the value of H&F in that regard.

Nosebleeds cool guy voice is so good.

Never knew anything about lefort before he was awesome on the podcast, i had to watch the wcg and bart pods in peices but this one i couldnt turn off and watched all the way through. cant wait to see where the pod goes from here and getting to know more unknown grinders/regs.

Interviews with superstars are cool but one with real and current day to day grinders is awesome idea and should hopefully create more interest in poker besides the insane nosebleed group of like 8 people

ps: please invite lefort back for more reg talk and hand analysis <3

Truth is that while I felt compelled to defend H&F when I first heard your remarks, I do very much understand why you'd feel this way. It is a problem and its a big turn off for a lot of people when they first visit H&F. I think its gotten better over the years, and I do think its worth trying to weed through the BS because there are some very good posters there.

They also have a cool moderation rule where the creator of a log can notify mods if he doesn't want someone posting in his/her log anymore.

I would advise starting your own thread for your blog. You're a random to most H&F regs, and its tough to convince regs to read a ton of words linked by a random in the monthly low content thread. Your own thread will allow you slightly more control(i.e. can ban trolls from posting in it) and it will allow the H&F readers to slowly see that you do have lots to contribute(and thus make them more willing to read lengthy blog entries from you).



You're probably right, and I'm probably overly defensive about this(see my 2p2 post count)

good points, I agree and would like to amend what I earlier said regarding this


I totally agree with the last part about nutrition/recovery/rest/etc.

As for the first part...Unless I was able to talk with them about their goals, I can't really say. With that said, I'm guessing that you and I do have some disagreements on this(in general I expect that I would advocate a SS-type workout to achieve one's goals a lot more often than you would). This is probably an area where we could have our most productive conversation- looking at specific people and their goals, both recommending a workout plan, and comparing where and how our advice differs. Trying to debate about generalities isn't as fruitful imo. I know that we've both given some advice to Dan and Aaron in the past(they've shared with me some of the emails you wrote about fitness/nutrition), so maybe they'd make good test cases for us.

Anyway, more than starting a debate, I just wanted to get a conversation about fitness going with you. Like I said on twitter, I share your enthusiasm for learning about it....I'll be following your blog, and hopefully we can keep up these discussions.


Yea, no problem. I'd be glad to do the podcast if people are interested in hearing me, although it'll probably be one of your worst shows poker-strategy wise(I'm not willing to discuss a ton of in-depth plo8 strategy since info on it is so scarce, and I'm nowhere near elite in any other game).

totally agree on having lefort back asap.

Good stuff Assani.. yeah I think I agree that we probably differ a bit on our approaches to certain goals/objectives.. although really, most people do and it just depends a lot on your background and where you developed your knowledge. I definitely do recommend SS to some people, namely people that give performance and strength a high importance, and/or people that still have a lot of learning to do wrt good form. (Although I usually add a caveat for these people to be very careful not to get too caught up with increasing weights at a cost of losing proper form.. I think that can be a real danger to some SS people but I assume in H&F that's something ppl talk about regularly etc..)

Thanks for your insight, I'll definitely give the H&F forum another chance and start browsing and hopefully get involved a bit. Look forward to discussing more stuff with you in the future.