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Old 01-18-2018, 02:47 PM   #8376
Rich Checkmaker
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Re: 2p2 legend ChicagoJoey PLO Podcasts (PLO and Poker Life episodes)

What would you tell your past self Joey if you could go back in time and talk to yourself a few years ago? Now extrapolate that and ask yourself what would your future self tell you right now???? Do it!

No one is perfect Joey, you can always do better. Don't slack off.
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Old 01-18-2018, 05:38 PM   #8377
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Re: 2p2 legend ChicagoJoey PLO Podcasts (PLO and Poker Life episodes)

I've read the players complaints over the recent years. There is an issue that no one seems to see. When Tim says you can't fix the problem, there is a missing caveat ie “...not with the current paradigm.”

And we can have different player archetypes who each have their own perspective on the problems and the solutions. The difficulty is that these views are consistent in a vacuum but not necessarily from the perspective of a different player type or if a wider scope were taken.

It is also true that if the games were dried up and overraked more players are therefore effectively “fun” players who think they are profitable in not profitable games. And I think that those type of players probably far outweigh the actual sharp players. In a field like this the commonly held views could easily drown out anyone with insight on how a different paradigm could be approached.

You said you were blind to the lack luster product the legacy sites offer. But now you plead to Poker Stars and speak towards Daniel N. Joey, he is the one that sold the players the lie that more rake will make the games better.

Furthermore you stop off in the Coinpoker ICO thread to simple say you don't understand the project. You are kind of being a poser here. That project and the other crypto projects that are trying to emerge could really use some awareness. The products they are offering, that are different that traditional legacy sites, have incredible potential to breathe new life into the game.

I think you owe it to the community to get antiquated with Coinpoker and the other emerging projects otherwise you just become exactly what you criticize stars and Dnegs for.

The legacy sites have business models based on having little competition and this environment has changed now. Sites like Stars cannot compete with sites that operate with deflationary currencies. They have no choice but to fleece the players and operate with no vision for the future.

In regard to the paradigm change,what is needed is the re-velation of the proper axioms from which to view the future of the game with.And it would be helpful if you learned about this emerging paradigm because it needs awareness asap.

You are letting Tim tilt you by saying there is no solution. Yet I have hundreds of writings on a solution that is a very big idea which is observably unfolding. Talk to Gzesh he will tell you some about the future or poker.

It's hypocritical to put out your email as if you are listening to good ideas that can work, while blocking out the one person that at least claims them... especially before you understand what they are.
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Old 01-18-2018, 06:05 PM   #8378
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Re: 2p2 legend ChicagoJoey PLO Podcasts (PLO and Poker Life episodes)

Poker had more fish before it was proven to be a game of skill. People now over estimate the roll skill plays, and feel like they can never win. Sure in the long run they will lose, but too many people are convinced that they have 0 chance to win some money in any given night. So it’s unfortunate, but poker is no longer seen as gambling by many smart people with money and now they are scared to even sit down.
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Old 01-18-2018, 06:13 PM   #8379
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Re: 2p2 legend ChicagoJoey PLO Podcasts (PLO and Poker Life episodes)

If I had 20,000 words I and others could write numerous measures that could build the game of on line poker, tournaments and cash games alike, on Pokerstars, making them more money in the long run, benefiting players, and helping them to secure the longevity of their business.

The issue is not whether such measures are possible or would work, the issue is that Pokerstars are no longer builders, they are pillagers.

Pillagers always gain in the short term, but rarely gain or survive in the long term.
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Old 01-18-2018, 07:47 PM   #8380
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Re: 2p2 legend ChicagoJoey PLO Podcasts (PLO and Poker Life episodes)

Quote:
Originally Posted by domgio7 View Post
Poker had more fish before it was proven to be a game of skill. People now over estimate the roll skill plays, and feel like they can never win. Sure in the long run they will lose, but too many people are convinced that they have 0 chance to win some money in any given night. So it’s unfortunate, but poker is no longer seen as gambling by many smart people with money and now they are scared to even sit down.
games are a lot tighter and less fun than they used to be.
there is no chat online anymore like in the old days except maybe to berate a fish.
fish are getting a lot less entertainment for their money than they used to- it's no surprise they play less. just bc someone is bad at poker doesn't make them dumb,especially when that person can afford to lose lots of money.
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Old 01-18-2018, 08:37 PM   #8381
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Re: 2p2 legend ChicagoJoey PLO Podcasts (PLO and Poker Life episodes)

Quote:
Originally Posted by domgio7 View Post
Poker had more fish before it was proven to be a game of skill. People now over estimate the roll skill plays, and feel like they can never win. Sure in the long run they will lose, but too many people are convinced that they have 0 chance to win some money in any given night. So it’s unfortunate, but poker is no longer seen as gambling by many smart people with money and now they are scared to even sit down.
Aggressive bum hunting at mid to high stakes killed it all and with less incentives to deposit and reductions in rake back your player who can afford to dump a few Ks for fun is now extinct,The cannibalistic nature of poker and in 2018 when some are not even high skilled just have software edge its hard to see a way back.

The only thing any Euro player can wish for the convergence of all the player pools again in stead of segregation that was the biggest nail the coffin,
after the USA pulled out.

Again the bum hunting is now so rampant its seen at nano stakes thats why my strategies is always to be the losest most aggressive player in any game and then adjust!
Reverse bum hunting serves me well.

And let me add when you can rent a server for 60 dollars a month run a dedicated high end custom laptop next to your Poker PC and get some IT genius from a 3rd word country to code trees that you can solve in real time with PIO and other software the game is almost solved in real time. Thats were we are at and hence why I very rarely play on any site that allows HUDs anymore.

Last edited by hitman4hire; 01-18-2018 at 08:54 PM.
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Old 01-18-2018, 10:27 PM   #8382
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Re: 2p2 legend ChicagoJoey PLO Podcasts (PLO and Poker Life episodes)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hitman4hire View Post
Aggressive bum hunting at mid to high stakes killed it all and with less incentives to deposit and reductions in rake back your player who can afford to dump a few Ks for fun is now extinct,The cannibalistic nature of poker and in 2018 when some are not even high skilled just have software edge its hard to see a way back.

The only thing any Euro player can wish for the convergence of all the player pools again in stead of segregation that was the biggest nail the coffin,
after the USA pulled out.

Again the bum hunting is now so rampant its seen at nano stakes thats why my strategies is always to be the losest most aggressive player in any game and then adjust!
Reverse bum hunting serves me well.

And let me add when you can rent a server for 60 dollars a month run a dedicated high end custom laptop next to your Poker PC and get some IT genius from a 3rd word country to code trees that you can solve in real time with PIO and other software the game is almost solved in real time. Thats were we are at and hence why I very rarely play on any site that allows HUDs anymore.

This

The increase in skill is overrated, most of the "regs" couldn't play without software and scripts. Not even talking huds, but real time huds, real time hand charts, etc etc. Finding a way to remove the parasitic software would drastically change things.
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Old 01-18-2018, 10:54 PM   #8383
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Re: 2p2 legend ChicagoJoey PLO Podcasts (PLO and Poker Life episodes)

Joey, Can we get a podcast with the 1 and only Deldar182; prlly already asked and failed but anyways
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Old 01-18-2018, 11:24 PM   #8384
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Re: 2p2 legend ChicagoJoey PLO Podcasts (PLO and Poker Life episodes)

Quote:
Originally Posted by FreshThyme View Post
This

The increase in skill is overrated, most of the "regs" couldn't play without software and scripts. Not even talking huds, but real time huds, real time hand charts, etc etc. Finding a way to remove the parasitic software would drastically change things.
Love it when people say this, I'm not a HUD guy, used/use one because you have to, but being a poker dinosaur I've never fully embraced it as is the norm now. That said, taking the bolded stance is pure delusion and makes me chuckle everytime I see it around here. Taking the help away is a great idea and I'm fully behind it, but convincing yourself there is a sea of regs at anything above 50NL that are crushing PURELY because of the software help is a joke.
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Old Yesterday, 12:06 AM   #8385
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Re: 2p2 legend ChicagoJoey PLO Podcasts (PLO and Poker Life episodes)

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Originally Posted by IMDABES View Post
Love it when people say this, I'm not a HUD guy, used/use one because you have to, but being a poker dinosaur I've never fully embraced it as is the norm now. That said, taking the bolded stance is pure delusion and makes me chuckle everytime I see it around here. Taking the help away is a great idea and I'm fully behind it, but convincing yourself there is a sea of regs at anything above 50NL that are crushing PURELY because of the software help is a joke.
why do people insist on rambling topics they have next to no knowledge about, 'I'm smart too...'
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Old Yesterday, 12:09 AM   #8386
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Re: 2p2 legend ChicagoJoey PLO Podcasts (PLO and Poker Life episodes)

I meant I don't love using it and probably don't rely on it as much as a lot of pros do these days, to my detriment most likely.
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Old Yesterday, 01:19 AM   #8387
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Re: 2p2 legend ChicagoJoey PLO Podcasts (PLO and Poker Life episodes)

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Originally Posted by IMDABES View Post
Love it when people say this, I'm not a HUD guy, used/use one because you have to, but being a poker dinosaur I've never fully embraced it as is the norm now. That said, taking the bolded stance is pure delusion and makes me chuckle everytime I see it around here. Taking the help away is a great idea and I'm fully behind it, but convincing yourself there is a sea of regs at anything above 50NL that are crushing PURELY because of the software help is a joke.
Now let me answer this 10 years ago after playing mid to high with no HUD I purchased one,Now let me tell you with pokerstove the holy grail of opponents ranges was unlocked in every position and every other trait.

The networks were full of fish the at all levels what do you think of the impact a software edge like this has?how much crushing would you do if 99% of player in the pool donot own this software or understand fully how to Implement and deploy?

you are very naive.

As you will hit the point of diminishing returns from out dated software I guess EVERY 50 nl player has a hud in 2018 online thus the harder it is to crush.

Last edited by hitman4hire; Yesterday at 01:25 AM.
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Old Yesterday, 01:37 AM   #8388
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Re: 2p2 legend ChicagoJoey PLO Podcasts (PLO and Poker Life episodes)

Some great reading comprehension going on here, I nowhere said it had no impact, obviously it does, I protested the idea that there is such thing as regs who are so reliant on the software help that they would be terrible if they didn't have it.
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Old Yesterday, 03:02 AM   #8389
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Re: 2p2 legend ChicagoJoey PLO Podcasts (PLO and Poker Life episodes)

Quote:
Originally Posted by IMDABES View Post
Love it when people say this, I'm not a HUD guy, used/use one because you have to, but being a poker dinosaur I've never fully embraced it as is the norm now. That said, taking the bolded stance is pure delusion and makes me chuckle everytime I see it around here. Taking the help away is a great idea and I'm fully behind it, but convincing yourself there is a sea of regs at anything above 50NL that are crushing PURELY because of the software help is a joke.
Not sure we're talking about the same software. The best players in most game types are definitely using software the masses don't have access to a big % of the time. That's not to say they all do, but lots do. Huds help the bad regs become ok regs. The **** that is out there now could take a monkey and have him playing perfect in a lot of spots, but very few have access to it. Look what happened to HU hypers, it was completely destroyed by automated software being used by the top regs to battle out that tiny ROI. You were literally drawing dead if you didn't have it.

And anyone who thinks there isn't a pio equivalent out there working in real time is the delusional one.
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Old Yesterday, 03:24 AM   #8390
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Re: 2p2 legend ChicagoJoey PLO Podcasts (PLO and Poker Life episodes)

The original post u made that I quoted you said "most" of the regs wouldn't be able to play without the software. Now you're talking about something that is theoretically out there?(for cash games) , "most" have this awesome theoretical software? Maybe true at 25/50+, for lower nah I dont think so. I wholeheartedly agree the real time software should be prevented at all costs, even the HUDs. But as usual around here we get some drama queens who I doubt actually make a living playing cash online.

Also all this software talk isnt really relevant to the fish/reg ratio imo, unless we're talking about HUDs helping supernova nitballs play 24 tables profitably on stars for years, that imo is the biggest single factor to the ratio becoming ****ed.
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Old Yesterday, 03:49 AM   #8391
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Re: 2p2 legend ChicagoJoey PLO Podcasts (PLO and Poker Life episodes)

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Originally Posted by FreshThyme View Post
^^

You clearly don't understand how poker works if you think high stakes and low stakes aren't directly correlated. Lower stakes grinders moving up is where the money comes from. Fish winning money in MTTs is where the money comes from. Guy Libretae (however it is spelled) is just a bonus.

What does that have to do with the original comment to ban high stakes players just because they won 7 million? once they reach high stakes their not taking out money from small stakes games.

Solution is once a player sits out they can do it once a hour, if they sit out again in the same hour they are banned for a hour, plus all the other obvious bs.
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Old Yesterday, 05:00 AM   #8392
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Re: 2p2 legend ChicagoJoey PLO Podcasts (PLO and Poker Life episodes)

Think it's awesome Joey's trying to monetize the podcast. Honestly.

I was homeless when the first sauce123 pod released. I was at starbucks, stayed until 8pm 4-tabling 10nl, then realized the only way to hear more of this etherhuman was public wifi; I sat on a bench of a Target and schelpped'd until they closed at 10pm.

Your podcast has been so inspirational over the years, I honestly can't fault you for anything that happens in the future. I respect you 100% for trying to make some margin off of your efforts; you deserve it. Big respect
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Old Yesterday, 01:09 PM   #8393
Nooseknot
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Re: 2p2 legend ChicagoJoey PLO Podcasts (PLO and Poker Life episodes)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hitman4hire View Post
Aggressive bum hunting at mid to high stakes killed it all and with less incentives to deposit and reductions in rake back your player who can afford to dump a few Ks for fun is now extinct,The cannibalistic nature of poker and in 2018 when some are not even high skilled just have software edge its hard to see a way back.

The only thing any Euro player can wish for the convergence of all the player pools again in stead of segregation that was the biggest nail the coffin,
after the USA pulled out.

Again the bum hunting is now so rampant its seen at nano stakes thats why my strategies is always to be the losest most aggressive player in any game and then adjust!
Reverse bum hunting serves me well.

And let me add when you can rent a server for 60 dollars a month run a dedicated high end custom laptop next to your Poker PC and get some IT genius from a 3rd word country to code trees that you can solve in real time with PIO and other software the game is almost solved in real time. Thats were we are at and hence why I very rarely play on any site that allows HUDs anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreshThyme View Post
This

The increase in skill is overrated, most of the "regs" couldn't play without software and scripts. Not even talking huds, but real time huds, real time hand charts, etc etc. Finding a way to remove the parasitic software would drastically change things.
These are the types of sentiments I am referring to. The misconception that players trying to find +ev spots killed the games and that taking away their ability or want to do so could possibly improve the games. The same goes for "parasitic software". It is only a partial perspective of the whole as using the software also requires skill, study, practice etc.

The games were not killed by these things anymore than the drying up of the profitability sent players deeper in these strategy lines to survive. And for that the regulatory environment and restrictions from payment processors was the real cause. Lack of competition in the industry for Poker Stars allowed continual unfavorable changes to the games that increased effective rake while players had no reasonable alternatives.

You don't want players who want to ban hides, software, or "bum-hunting" to get their way. You want all options. Some players can play in hudless games, some players play in hud'd games etc. Bum hunting is part of some player's strategy and its +ev. Some games and sites could be built for it in certain ways and some could be, for example, random seat placement...

There are many crypto sites popping up, and the majority are wild west fashion and the games are great. Parasitic software and bum hunting is not killing them, they are thriving and growing at a rapid pace. The decline in poker had nothing to do with the players efforts to win.
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