These plays I mentioned could be exploitative. If Wong wasn't value betting light after 3rd draw, his bets might be weighted towards bluff, which could be called light. Ivey might also have had a read.

If Wong was folding too much to a pat hand after drawing 2 on 2nd draw, and wasn't bluffing into a pat hand much, Ivey could pat lighter. It is almost like a snow to pat a hand that weak, except you try to show it down rather than bluff on the end.

I ****ing love mixed games and watching them,. i actualy miss the days wsop would stream overhead with only player commentary chatter or tuch would get some cash game specialist in and jhust ask him questions it was awesome for me to learn

NLH gets stale super quick. its not even close, most of the FTs are shove and folds half the time too

Bucket hat boom incoming

There’s the old saw about the rookie pitcher throwing for the first time to Ted Williams and complaining to the ump that a called ball had actually been a strike. “Listen kid,” the ump is said to have told the pitcher, “Mr. Williams will let you know when your pitch is a strike by swinging at it.” Along these lines, Mr. Ivey will let you know when it’s correct to draw, stand pat, call, or fold.

+ the creepy guy tinted glasses

Definitely a look!

Ivey Ivey Ivey!

Yes! Yes! Yes!

Hellmuth has 17. Ivey is a much better player than Hellmuth. Ivey beat the $2K/4K mixed game at Bellagio. Hellmuth is just a tournament player. Ivey started later and none of his bracelets are in holdem whereas all but 3 of Hellmuth's bracelets are in holdem.

Surely there's no debate about who's the better player, it's clearly Ivey

"just a tournament player" is like saying "Brady was just an NFL quarterback"

The kneejerk reflex of some to just instinctively try to cut down Hellmuth's accomplishments is laughable.

In addition to his 17 bracelets, do you know how many runner-ups he has?
Look it up, I dare ya

Yes, he is borderline impossible to like, but his accomplishments at the WSOP are so far and away ahead of others it's laughable

There was a time 10 years ago it looked like Ivey was going to leave Hellmuth in the dust in WSOP bracelets
But you know what? Ivey didnt.
For whatever reason, boredom, burnout, legal troubles, no matter the reason, Ivey didnt
And that ability of Phil to keep coming back for more has to count for something.,

In the end, he has 17 and the next closest is 11.
Just let it go,
Hellmuth is the greatest WSOP player of all time and it's not even close

And the answer is 11
11 runner ups

he has 17 wins and 11 runner ups in 57 final tables
That means when he gets to a final table he has a 28/57 chance of getting heads up
Literally 49.1%
Please show me someone else with that ratio and 30+ final tables
(we need a decent sample size and about half of Phil's total seems fair)
Hellmuth is a lot of things, and a Finisher is one of them.

I wonder who is second highest for 1st and 2nds combined

20 of his 57 final tables are in NON-Hold-Em events

Just live with it, Hellmuth is the WSOP GOAT and the next best is a distant 2nd

Now commence with the endless claims of things he is not the best at
and I'll say, "sure, he seems to suck at cash games, but my point still stands, he is the WSOP GOAT"

I grew up a Duke fan from long before it was cool, like mid 80s
and my buddies would say, "see, they suck in the NBA" and I'd be like, "doesnt bother me, they aint wearing the Duke blue anymore"
They still destroyed everyone in college which is what I care about.

So just accept it, at the WSOP Hellmuth reigns supreme, and in other avenues of poker, not so much,
but I have yet to see anyone make the claim outside of the WSOP, so who and what are you really refuting

Eh? No. The rest of your post has plenty of merit, but this opening line is nonsensical. An NFL quarterback faces the very best in the game – and ONLY the very best in the game. Oddly, it better supports the argument for Ivey, since far more of his time on the felt has taken place in situations with almost exclusively the toughest opponents – i.e. high-stakes cash games. Tournaments tend to have the entire spectrum of poker skill levels.

A while back, I posited that Hellmuth is to poker what Miroslav Klose is to football, as Klose holds the record for most career goals in FIFA World Cup history. It's a nice achievement, sure, and certainly a high-profile one for more casual fans of the sport. However, the World Cup does not have the same level of competition, top-to-bottom, as (say) the Champions League. As I noted, it's why you don't find Klose on anyone's list of all-time top 10 or 20 footballers.

On the other hand...

Yeah, gotta agree with that, and this is coming from someone who routinely roots against Hellmuth. So I urge others to move past BSumner's first sentence and read the rest because he makes a good case for his actual thesis statement.

If you count bracelets in the 21st century, Ivey and Hellmuth are even at 11. Ivey is a lot younger. Ivey had huge numbers of WPT final tables. Ivey beats high stakes cash games at NLHE, PLO, and mixed games. High stakes cash games are generally a lot tougher than tournaments. Hellmuth's bracelets are impressive, but he isn't a really top player overall.

This article makes it seem like Ivey got the wheel hand multiple times...

https://www.pokernews.com/news/2024/...elet-46273.htm


Are they misusing the word wheel or did Ivey really make the best hand in Triple draw (23457) multiple times? If so that some really good run good

Congrats tho!

It think it is true. He made 2 wheels in the few hands HU against Wong, including the final hand. He didn't need anything like a wheel to win those hands.

I don't think anyone is making that argument. Ivey is clearly the better overall player all things considered, but Helmuth is the WSOP Goat.

So you literally did what I said you would do.
You changed the topic to numerous other metrics to avoid that Hellmuth at the WSOP is the absolute best.

Why is it so many people just cant get themselves to say "yep Hellmuth is the WSOP GOAT" and just stop it at that?

You went with changing the timeline for their bracelets
You then went with a comment about their age
Then brought in WPT
Then talked about high stakes cash
and finally said he is not a "top player overall"

It's just so predictable.
You can torture the data to make it say whatever you want
But no matter how you slice it, 28 1st and 2nds and a 49% rate of going from the final table to heads up?

There is no comparison.
And that's okay.

Hellmuth's WSOP record is really impressive. However, as I explained Hellmuth and Ivey have the same number of bracelets this century. Hellmuth won several bracelets when or before Ivey was playing in AC with a fake ID. In addition, Ivey is the much better overall player.

Most knowledgeable poker players would probably agree with the following two statements:

(1) Hellmuth has the best all-time results at the WSOP

(2) Hellmuth is not anywhere near the best all-time all-around poker player (personally I would not have Hellmuth in the top 100).

Exactly, there is more money to be made in high stakes cash games, and some of the best players are almost unknown for that reason. Ivey is at least one of the top 10 all-around players today. 15 years ago, he was maybe the best. Helmuth is nowhere near that level.

That tournament gave 100 chips for each dollar buyin, unlike the old days at the WSOP when each dollar buyin was one chip. So stealing 4 million chips was about like stealing $40,000.

I don't know if Men should be banned everywhere, but he should be banned from the WSOP and other properties by the same company.