I hate when people talk about the fact that we will be moving towards a society in which people may not have to work as a negative thing. It is only that way because of the current system. The difficulty is that most governments and countries aren't even thinking about or planning for this future. I think we will probably end up with a period in history that is extremely painful for many people when automation/AI really takes hold leading to massive rises in unemployment but from that new paradigms and systems will form to support the new reality.

Where are you getting 5-10k hours of lectures just for undergrad? Undergrad is 4 years. I had about ~800 hours of lecture per year (if you attend everything) and maybe 400-800 hours of work depending on how quickly you bang it out. Lectures weren't mandatory so undergrad was less than 1k hours per year of light/easy study, much easier than trying to learn from a solver

I agree with you and did not mean to imply otherwise (hence quoted word "damage"). But as long as governments are failing, automation will stay a threat, not a promise.

That said, I believe that humans need some degree of stress/challenge in order to be fullfilled. Post-scarcity world could become a dark place. Im not saying it will, but Brave New World feels scarily relevant already.

2003 vs 2007 was like night an day though?

In 2003 all you had to do was fire up Pacific Poker and fold occasionally...

IMO the real turning point was when you went from game selecting tables with multiple fish to all regs vs a single fish.

Juk

If you’re truly great at poker and been through all the ups and downs and survived, there’s really nothing holding you back from making 5 to 10 times the money as trader. It all translates.

The overall sentiment is understandable, but not everything is about money.

It’s common knowledge that there are significant diminishing returns wrt money and quality of life past a certain point.

I’m fairly confident that it’s hard to become one of the best in poker (live or online) without enjoying the grind to a certain extent.

$150k and $500k/yr would be more or less the same thing for 99% of single people if their standard of living stayed the same.

confirmed

if you want to exclude tutorials, labs, the time spent writing exams, any form of preparation, and you didn't take a single elective more than would be absolutely necessary, sure- it's about 3.2k hours, which is less than 5k.

and if you really want to split hairs you could argue that isn't "in the same ballpark" (the phrase i used) as 5-10k. it's still much closer to that 'ballpark' than it is to the time commitment of someone several years after their MBA whose plateaued in terms of their earning capacity and is close to the top of their field.


The fact that you can get through undergrad with less than 1k hours a year of commitment doesn't really say much about the time commitment necessary to get hired for a role that has the potential for meaningful growth.

Even something as meh as working as an entry level accountant for a big 4 firm requires a highly competitive GPA, and these are very far from lucrative jobs at the entry level.

The avg 500zoomer, in terms of effort, is closer to the equivalent of someone who finished undergrad, started working towards a CFA while learning SQL on the side, and was grateful to have landed an entry level analyst role for $50k/y.

Are there people who bypass all those hurdles and get started without having an extremely competitive academic record and/or marketable skills? sure. it's called nepotism. happens all the time.

I can confirm the last 2 sentences

number one rule of benefiting from nepotism is refusing to admit to nepotism existing.
shhhhh

but really, it's important to emphasize this, because this is shockingly common and one of the reasons why some think it's so easy to get ahead - the classic of starting on 3rd base and thinking you hit a home run.

you don't get to see it as an outsider though because the organizations form their own insular communities who seldom hire externally and it's known from very early on you're not supposed to talk about it.

imagine getting paid 40k/y (roughly full time min wage in a nyc) to learn organization specific skills on the job while people with identical transcripts would have to go back to the drawing board and pay big bucks to get a grad degree or post grad certs just to find any employment in the field. many of these roles would in a true market driven economy pay less than zero for the same reason that people pay big money for education. they may still plateau north of 100k after getting an MBA, but that market value is predicated on companies having to pay people $40k/y out of the gate. pull that rug out and their lifetime income trajectory would plummet.

people need to be aware of how this shapes employment statistics. because a school boasts that half of grads in a particular major find work in their field doesn't mean that being in the top x percentile of your class means anything at all.

lmaoooo 7.5k of lectures for undergrad fkn imagine

If it takes you 4 years to do undergrad, you did it wrong.

This has been ongoing since time immortal and includes the 200 year history of this country. The adjustment will not take long. It never has.

should be very easy to complete undergrad in 2-3 years but universities are incentivized to keep you in the program longer.

For example, over half of my required courses were only offered 1 quarter out of the year and had a strict maximum capacity.Of course, max capacity always much lower than the # of people who needed the course.

If you didn't get lucky enough to get a seat you had to wait a year for another chance. Sometimes the schedule would change, so if you didn't get a class in Fall 2020 it might not be offered again until Spring 2022. Want to take time off in the meantime so you don't waste $40k+ on tuition? Just apply for a leave of absence, maybe you'll get permission! Or maybe not, just spin the wheel and see!

For a lot of people, college is the best time of their life. Grad school even more than undergrad. Why rush through things?

I remember in one of the introductory events when talking about scheduling, someone asked why there weren’t any lectures on Fridays. The answer was pretty easy: Because people either party Thursday night or leave for the weekend, barely anyone would show up for those anyway.

That doesn’t happen with too many regular jobs.

This is the important part right here. 100k without benefits is worth significantly less.

Not a lot of jobs let you schedule your own hours or take any days/weeks/months off that you want. Most jobs don't let you take your paycheck early if you want to or let you blast music while you work.

Professional poker comes with a lot more benefits than the average 6 figure company-slave gets

Most 6 figure jobs are going to have fantastic benefits. 15+ paid days off a year. By 6-figs you probably get 20-25 days off a year. Most jobs will let you take a loan against your future pay checks, or will let you take a loan against your 401k, which is basically taking a paycheck early. 401k match will be 5%+ most of the time. Cheap insurance is a big thing (medical, dental, vision). You don't realize how quickly that can add up until you have an unexpected knee injury from trying to move your computer chair in thick carpet (actually happened to me). Performance based bonus, betterment programs (tuition assistance), social interactions, HSA/FSA, ESPP, company discounts...

Just between PTO and 401k match, at 6 figures, you are talking about ~15k in benefits or more per year.

It’s crazy how there’s still people who think poker>6 figure job. Sure, in 2008 it was but nowadays? Unless they all plan to die when they turn 35-40 I don’t see how poker could be a better choice overall. I guess there is hope when you get older and the game gets too tough, Barry Greenstein killed it in those pokerstars play money games.

Rofl. I know several players in 35-40 and they are doing just fine. Allso those 6 figures jobs don't grow on trees. Well atleast here they don't and they are not taxfree either.

If you can't do it it doesn't mean others can't either. That attitude I don't understand. Is it jealousy because others managed to do what you couldn't?

This. Being pro is like owning your own business and when you are smart about it you make sure your future is allso secured. Freedom beats benefits any given sunday from my pov.

Mod note: please keep it friendly in here.

I concede that several players is a huge sample so you got me there. Ok, 35-40 are doing fine. What about 55-60? I know more than several people in that age range with normal jobs and they are doing more than fine. How many 60 year okd crushers do you know?

Never said I can’t do it. In fact, I’m saying that from my own experience “doing it”. Point remains, Id much rather do it like Dang brothers or Pius Heine than how Mike Matusow and all other broke degens “did it”.

Other than my mom I don't know a single person over 55 year old so can't answer that. The players I know are planning to retire and do pretty much what retired people do at that age. Don't know if you are like 21 but being 35-40 isn't that old tbh. Your braind doesn't stop working so the games are too hard to beat . But yeah that's just my opinion no reason to continue this I think.

Well this thread is kinda about what we are talking about. You have to be in the 0.001% winning players to retire at 40 and live out another 35-40 years of ones life expectancy.
Not 35 yet, if I’m still playing by then I’d consider I failed miserably, even if I stay at the same win rate, which is quite possible since I don’t play online and my games never get tougher.
Disagree on the brain thing, most software devs, gamers, investment bankers etc see a decline in performance at about 35-40y. I would assume same applies to poker, at least to some extent.

See I thought this too until I joined the slavery. I have x amount of work to do in a month and I can either put in a 12 hour day or I can knock off early a couple days in a row. It's up to me, the work will still be there.

While working mainly from home the past several months the 'grind' sure feels similar to the old poker grind. I sit at my desk, throw music in, and get to work.