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Old 11-12-2008, 06:21 PM   #1
MasterLJ
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Your money is safe!!!! (UIGEA Regs)

This keeps coming up, so I felt it deserved its own thread and hopefully a sticky

Quote:
§___.2(y) Restricted transaction. Several commenters asked the Agencies to clarify that the definition of "restricted transaction" would not apply to funds going to a consumer (i.e., a gambler), as opposed to funds going to a commercial customer (i.e., an Internet gambling business).38 The Act defines "restricted transaction" in § 5362(7) as “any transaction…which the recipient is prohibited from accepting under section 5363.” In turn, § 5363 provides that “[n]o person engaged in the business of betting or wagering may knowingly accept” a payment “in connection with the participation of another person in unlawful Internet gambling.” Under the final rule, the term "restricted transaction" would not include funds going to a gambler, and would only include funds going to an Internet gambling business
Obviously this is in today's terms... I can't tell you what banks might do, and I admit that I'm not knowledgable about what kind of power the Treasury has to shut down sites. So if something catastrophic happens, hopefully I don't get a bunch of angry PMs. I think all of us have known that our money on a site is not 100% face value. You don't know what tomorrow brings (as the Neteller fiasco showed us).

But anyway, as of today, your money is just as safe an accessible as it was before the Regs. These Regs only deal with loading money onto sites.
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Old 11-12-2008, 06:33 PM   #2
The4thFilm
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Re: Your money is safe!!!! (UIGEA Regs)

Why do only regs get their money and not the fish?
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Old 11-12-2008, 06:33 PM   #3
Hock_
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Re: Your money is safe!!!! (UIGEA Regs)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterLJ View Post
This keeps coming up, so I felt it deserved its own thread and hopefully a sticky



Obviously this is in today's terms... I can't tell you what banks might do, and I admit that I'm not knowledgable about what kind of power the Treasury has to shut down sites. So if something catastrophic happens, hopefully I don't get a bunch of angry PMs. I think all of us have known that our money on a site is not 100% face value. You don't know what tomorrow brings (as the Neteller fiasco showed us).

But anyway, as of today, your money is just as safe an accessible as it was before the Regs. These Regs only deal with loading money onto sites.
This is from the statute itself, which is clearly limited to blocking transactions INTO the sites.
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Old 11-12-2008, 06:35 PM   #4
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Thumbs up Re: Your money is safe!!!! (UIGEA Regs)

very nice somewhat reassuring find sir...thank you
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Old 11-12-2008, 06:36 PM   #5
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Re: Your money is safe!!!! (UIGEA Regs)

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Originally Posted by The4thFilm View Post
Why do only regs get their money and not the fish?
IC wat u did there
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Old 11-12-2008, 06:45 PM   #6
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Re: Your money is safe!!!! (UIGEA Regs)

I trust you, Optimus Prime.
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Old 11-12-2008, 06:47 PM   #7
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Re: Your money is safe!!!! (UIGEA Regs)

so we're gonna start getting checks w/ pokerstars at the top and laughing to the bank?
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Old 11-12-2008, 06:50 PM   #8
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Re: Your money is safe!!!! (UIGEA Regs)

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Originally Posted by elgreenhornet View Post
so we're gonna start getting checks w/ pokerstars at the top and laughing to the bank?
I only have experience with Cake and FTP checks, but they say (insert major bank name here).

And gobbo... like I said, I don't want an inbox full of angry PMs if something weird happens. I don't want accountability in case something really weird goes down and the owners of FTP are arrested. But just trust what is printed in the regs released today that there is no new or additional threat to your online bankroll. And as someone so elegantly put it, "we can wait for Armageddon to happen before having to truly worry."

Last edited by Kevmath; 11-13-2008 at 01:02 PM. Reason: removed bank name
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Old 11-12-2008, 09:23 PM   #9
DrTchocky
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Re: Your money is safe!!!! (UIGEA Regs)

In after gobbo.

good work LJ you have given me hope. a new hope.
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Old 11-12-2008, 09:29 PM   #10
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Re: Your money is safe!!!! (UIGEA Regs)

After reading what seems like a dozen of these UIGEA threads i would just like to say that people have been way too speculative and irrational and that MasterLJ has been the voice of reason in every one. Thank you for sifting through all the jargon and finding whats important. Hopefully you don't get flamed for it in this one.
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Old 11-12-2008, 09:33 PM   #11
The4thFilm
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Re: Your money is safe!!!! (UIGEA Regs)

Can someone send the pdf to a law blog somewhere and have them analyze it? Seems like the blind leading the blind in NVG.
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Old 11-12-2008, 09:44 PM   #12
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Re: Your money is safe!!!! (UIGEA Regs)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTchocky View Post
In after gobbo.

good work LJ you have given me hope. a new hope.
duhduhduh duhhhhhh, duhhhhh, duhduhduh duhhhhhhhhhh duh, duhduhduh duhhhhhhhhhhhh duh, duhduhduh duhhhhhh
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Old 11-12-2008, 09:47 PM   #13
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Re: Your money is safe!!!! (UIGEA Regs)

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Originally Posted by elgreenhornet View Post
so we're gonna start getting checks w/ pokerstars at the top and laughing to the bank?
qft

My understanding has been that this was the case all along. It's been such a red tape cluster**** with the banks and whoever else trying to figure out wtf they were supposed to be doing, though, that they kept ****ing with cashouts for no apparent reason. Maybe they'll stop doing that now. At least that's a plus.
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Old 11-12-2008, 09:57 PM   #14
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Re: Your money is safe!!!! (UIGEA Regs)

I really really hope so...


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Old 11-13-2008, 02:31 AM   #15
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Re: Your money is safe!!!! (UIGEA Regs)

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Originally Posted by The4thFilm View Post
Can someone send the pdf to a law blog somewhere and have them analyze it? Seems like the blind leading the blind in NVG.
I don't know if this helps but I'm a graduating 3L at NYU Law who is writing a paper on this topic - I've read through most of the threads, just haven't felt the need to post because MasterLJ is showing you the most important stuff.

UIGEA has never claimed to change any of the substantive law regarding gambling - it piggybacks off existing state and federal law to determine what is improper (with regards to bets and wagers). The troubling part of the new regulations, as MasterLJ points out in another thread, is that the regulators are wavering on what exactly the legal standard is: MOST of the state law requires the outcome to be predominately subject to chance for it to count as "gambling" (which is where the "game of skill" exception that FTP and Stars are invoking) comes into play. UIGEA, according to the text of the statute, should not be changing this. But the new regulations have a section which imply that a prohibited transaction would include games "subject to chance" without the predominant requirement. This would be a drastic departure from the text of the UIGEA and the typical federal approach to gambling.

If there is no change to the substantive law, then the only real impact is the chilling effect that it's had on sites who were unwilling to stick it out in the US market due to the legal uncertainty and banks who didn't want to run afoul of the legislation, but most of that probably happened when the legislation was initially passed.
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Old 11-13-2008, 02:41 AM   #16
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Re: Your money is safe!!!! (UIGEA Regs)

TY
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Old 11-13-2008, 02:59 AM   #17
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Re: Your money is safe!!!! (UIGEA Regs)

Quote:
Originally Posted by EDonk View Post
I don't know if this helps but I'm a graduating 3L at NYU Law who is writing a paper on this topic - I've read through most of the threads, just haven't felt the need to post because MasterLJ is showing you the most important stuff.

UIGEA has never claimed to change any of the substantive law regarding gambling - it piggybacks off existing state and federal law to determine what is improper (with regards to bets and wagers). The troubling part of the new regulations, as MasterLJ points out in another thread, is that the regulators are wavering on what exactly the legal standard is: MOST of the state law requires the outcome to be predominately subject to chance for it to count as "gambling" (which is where the "game of skill" exception that FTP and Stars are invoking) comes into play. UIGEA, according to the text of the statute, should not be changing this. But the new regulations have a section which imply that a prohibited transaction would include games "subject to chance" without the predominant requirement. This would be a drastic departure from the text of the UIGEA and the typical federal approach to gambling.

If there is no change to the substantive law, then the only real impact is the chilling effect that it's had on sites who were unwilling to stick it out in the US market due to the legal uncertainty and banks who didn't want to run afoul of the legislation, but most of that probably happened when the legislation was initially passed.

Unfortunately, law, like all politics, is about money and influence. There's no such thing as 'law' and I bet you know that by now. The UIGEA could have a provision specifically exempting online poker from all prohibitions, and tomorrow a judge could find a way to rule the exact opposite is true. I guess coming right out like that and just saying so doesn't make for a good paper though.

Random rant off.
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Old 11-13-2008, 12:58 PM   #18
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Re: Your money is safe!!!! (UIGEA Regs)

People DO NOT walk into a bank now all cocky that your check is from POKER. Despite the clause that tells banks to not look for gambling payouts, it doesn't mean they do not have their own internal policies against it. They also could be overly paranoid now that all this regulation talk is being floated around, so everybody be smart when you deposit. Use an ATM and/or never tell them exactly where the check is from. "It was a payment for services" is all you should ever say.
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Old 11-13-2008, 01:20 PM   #19
EDonk
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Re: Your money is safe!!!! (UIGEA Regs)

Ugggh, except the new regulations explicitly authorize the banks receipt of the funds. You think that a bank is going to turn down deposits that have been authorized by statute? Doubtful.

Though in general I would agree it's probably a bad idea to be a cocky ******* to anyone who is in charge of your bank account....
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Old 11-13-2008, 01:34 PM   #20
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Re: Your money is safe!!!! (UIGEA Regs)

Joe Teller or even most dumb branch managers likely would not know or remember the federal statutes. I also interpret the regs as saying the banks are not liable for policing payouts from gambling sites. It does not mean they are forced to take such payments. If they have their own policies against it, those would still stand. Also I bet the DOJ could find many loopholes and go after the processor behind the account. Please do not burn processors here people because you suddenly think nothing can be done to stop these checks. All I am asking for is people to be careful here. Act status quo and keep your mouth shuts at the bank please.
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Old 11-13-2008, 01:34 PM   #21
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Re: Your money is safe!!!! (UIGEA Regs)

So is the consensus that there won't be any change for withdrawing funds, and UIGEA won't affect transactions until the end of next year?
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Old 11-13-2008, 01:45 PM   #22
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Re: Your money is safe!!!! (UIGEA Regs)

So what you are saying is if you have money online already, you are OK. If you go busto, depositing more funds will be next to impossible.
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Old 11-13-2008, 01:52 PM   #23
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Re: Your money is safe!!!! (UIGEA Regs)

There is no change because LJ said so. I am suing him for legal malpractice if anything bad happens. Either way, I win!

But seriously, I don't see how people can think these regulations change anything. The poker sites are going to keep using bull**** code names for deposits and withdrawals and everything will be fine.
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Old 11-13-2008, 02:01 PM   #24
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Re: Your money is safe!!!! (UIGEA Regs)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gildwulf View Post
duhduhduh duhhhhhh, duhhhhh, duhduhduh duhhhhhhhhhh duh, duhduhduh duhhhhhhhhhhhh duh, duhduhduh duhhhhhh
the fact that I immediately knew what this was reminds me that John Williams is the luckiest bastard in the world. Steal phrases from famous classical pieces --> insert into pop culture = ridiculous profit
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Old 11-13-2008, 02:29 PM   #25
LetsGambool
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Re: Your money is safe!!!! (UIGEA Regs)

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Originally Posted by mrcommonsense View Post
Joe Teller or even most dumb branch managers likely would not know or remember the federal statutes. I also interpret the regs as saying the banks are not liable for policing payouts from gambling sites. It does not mean they are forced to take such payments. If they have their own policies against it, those would still stand. Also I bet the DOJ could find many loopholes and go after the processor behind the account. Please do not burn processors here people because you suddenly think nothing can be done to stop these checks. All I am asking for is people to be careful here. Act status quo and keep your mouth shuts at the bank please.
+1, processors are still an a grey area processing withdrawals
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