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Old 06-20-2008, 08:23 AM   #126
Bulletproof Monk
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Re: Tounament Hotshot Still Pooh Poohs Game Theoretic Champs

this is just a useless forum full stop imo
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Old 06-20-2008, 08:40 AM   #127
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Re: Tounament Hotshot Still Pooh Poohs Game Theoretic Champs

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Originally Posted by Clayton View Post
"Are the Math Players Taking Over?" would be equally suitable for NVG or Tournament Circuit forum

NVG is a haven for people to gossip or talk about hot topics. This thread not only doesn't satisfy the gossip requirement (because it isnt surprising that a non-math oriented player is not going to think greatly of ferguson/bloch/singer when he's clearly inferior), it just isn't interesting enough to start a new thread.

Be realistic, you aren't gonna have people jumping at this thread. "WOW, I wonder who this TV pro is? I MUST KNOW!"

NVG is more catered to the 18-35 year olds who want to follow the gigantic swings in the lives of Ivey and Benyamine, or who is driving what car or who is bust. Not who thinks Bloch isn't a great player.
Clearly you are an IDIOT Clayton. This is the correct forum for this specific thread, and what's ******ed is that you'd even question if it meets the gossip requirement, how ghey.
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Old 06-20-2008, 08:41 AM   #128
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Re: Tounament Hotshot Still Pooh Poohs Game Theoretic Champs

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This thread not only doesn't satisfy the gossip requirement
LOL, you wrote this.
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Old 06-20-2008, 08:46 AM   #129
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Re: Tounament Hotshot Still Pooh Poohs Game Theoretic Champs

david - why not make a new thread called 'Are the math players taking over?' with a similar premise and see how that does?

seems the only way to be sure
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Old 06-20-2008, 08:46 AM   #130
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Re: Tounament Hotshot Still Pooh Poohs Game Theoretic Champs

joe: ya its 5am and im back from a birthday party grinding 2p2, who cares, im just trying to elaborate why david's threads seem out of place in NVG; all they do is leave readers puzzled and annoyed. thats what the SMP forum is for, obviously.
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Old 06-20-2008, 08:47 AM   #131
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Re: Tounament Hotshot Still Pooh Poohs Game Theoretic Champs

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Why isn't this the right forum regardless? Suppose I started a thread called "Are The Math Players Taking Over?" This isn't the best forum for that? I seriously would like to know.
This is the right forum if you want to reach the widest audience. This may be the wrong forum (or at least the wrong way to write the original post) if you don't want the discussion to center around the anonymous person whose opinion you are citing. It's the difference between how things "ought to be" and how they realistically function.

Have you found this attitude in younger non-math-oriented players (who are the most recognizable players who fit this label?) or is this belief generally restricted to much older players?

I suspect that some people on this forum don't think highly of Andy Bloch's game, at least, based on his televised appearances. If given the opportunity, some people (but not I) would probably label him a ridiculous calling station.

If there is a reasonable criticism of game theoretical players, I think it is something that Matt Matros (a math-y player in his own right) pointed out in his book The Making of a Poker Player: some math-based players are exploitable because they are incredibly bad at putting their opponents on a reasonable hand range. (Matros also seems to believe that some notable math players are "tell stations," so it doesn't matter if they use optimal bluffing frequency against an expert player. This criticism probably has some merit, so perhaps more players need to adopt Chris Ferguson's ritualistic approach to playing.)
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Old 06-20-2008, 08:53 AM   #132
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Re: Tounament Hotshot Still Pooh Poohs Game Theoretic Champs

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Clearly you are an IDIOT Clayton. This is the correct forum for this specific thread, and what's ******ed is that you'd even question if it meets the gossip requirement, how ghey.
FWIW, Clayton is a pretty nice guy, AFAIK. More than a few 2p2rs would say the same, IMO. ATM, I'm agreeing with Clayton's post, LOL.
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Old 06-20-2008, 08:55 AM   #133
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Re: Tounament Hotshot Still Pooh Poohs Game Theoretic Champs

Plus, look at the guy's avatar. Come on...
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Old 06-20-2008, 09:27 AM   #134
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Re: Tounament Hotshot Still Pooh Poohs Game Theoretic Champs

David, I'm not going to hate on you personally, just please consider what people's responses will be before you make threads like this. I can understand how in your mind this story sounds juicy and newsworthy, because you KNOW who the person is that made the comments. Since we don't, this thread becomes a failure.
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Old 06-20-2008, 09:35 AM   #135
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Re: Tounament Hotshot Still Pooh Poohs Game Theoretic Champs

I rather enjoyed this thread.
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Old 06-20-2008, 12:45 PM   #136
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Re: Tounament Hotshot Still Pooh Poohs Game Theoretic Champs

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Originally Posted by King Of Grind View Post
David, I'm not going to hate on you personally, just please consider what people's responses will be before you make threads like this. I can understand how in your mind this story sounds juicy and newsworthy, because you KNOW who the person is that made the comments. Since we don't, this thread becomes a failure.
actually many people who have read David's past threads already know the answer. This is an old topic revisited, and I find it much more interesting than talking about XYZ who doesn't wash his hands after going to the bathroom at the Bellagio.
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Old 06-20-2008, 02:21 PM   #137
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Re: Tounament Hotshot Still Pooh Poohs Game Theoretic Champs

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david, you suck
Where's that guy who thinks the posters on 2+2 who are atheists are just copying Sklansky because everyone on this site shamelessly worships DS?
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Old 06-20-2008, 03:06 PM   #138
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Re: Tounament Hotshot Still Pooh Poohs Game Theoretic Champs

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Originally Posted by PokrLikeItsProse View Post
This is the right forum if you want to reach the widest audience. This may be the wrong forum (or at least the wrong way to write the original post) if you don't want the discussion to center around the anonymous person whose opinion you are citing. It's the difference between how things "ought to be" and how they realistically function.

Have you found this attitude in younger non-math-oriented players (who are the most recognizable players who fit this label?) or is this belief generally restricted to much older players?

I suspect that some people on this forum don't think highly of Andy Bloch's game, at least, based on his televised appearances. If given the opportunity, some people (but not I) would probably label him a ridiculous calling station.

If there is a reasonable criticism of game theoretical players, I think it is something that Matt Matros (a math-y player in his own right) pointed out in his book The Making of a Poker Player: some math-based players are exploitable because they are incredibly bad at putting their opponents on a reasonable hand range. (Matros also seems to believe that some notable math players are "tell stations," so it doesn't matter if they use optimal bluffing frequency against an expert player. This criticism probably has some merit, so perhaps more players need to adopt Chris Ferguson's ritualistic approach to playing.)
I am talking about these three players specifically. None of them play a highly volatile game so their immense success cannot be attributable totally to luck. My guess is that part of their success can be attributed to well timed but rare bluffs. In any case it is dumb to believe in the face of great evidence that these guys don't know something most pros don't. (Example: You are in the cutoff with 8 big blinds. You know that the three players behind you will call a move in with any pair or any two cards above a nine. Should you move in with K4 suited? I guarantee Chris Ferguson knows the answer and the fellow I was talking to doesn't.)

I actually argued this point with him but he remained adament that his overall impression of them makes up for things like that. But results say otherwise.

I'll ask him today if I can out him.
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Old 06-20-2008, 03:08 PM   #139
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Re: Tounament Hotshot Still Pooh Poohs Game Theoretic Champs

The foreign idioms and accents ITT are hard for me to understand, but I think, if "pooh pooh" = "1, 2 teddy", then OP is saying that at least one tunamelt hotshot is continuing to pwn the mathy types.
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Old 06-20-2008, 03:27 PM   #140
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Re: Tounament Hotshot Still Pooh Poohs Game Theoretic Champs

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Sklansky View Post
Example: You are in the cutoff with 8 big blinds. You know that the three players behind you will call a move in with any pair or any two cards above a nine. Should you move in with K4 suited?
Should you raise 2.2 bb ?

Shipping is so 2006.
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Old 06-20-2008, 03:40 PM   #141
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Re: Tounament Hotshot Still Pooh Poohs Game Theoretic Champs

The thread is not that bad if you only read the 1st and last page. No wait I changed my mind. it still sucks
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Old 06-20-2008, 03:47 PM   #142
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Re: Tounament Hotshot Still Pooh Poohs Game Theoretic Champs

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Originally Posted by Bulletproof Monk View Post
people are obviously confused...

david - maybe you should start a new thread clarifying the op?
lolol
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Old 06-20-2008, 04:44 PM   #143
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Re: Tounament Hotshot Still Pooh Poohs Game Theoretic Champs

most likely ppl to have said this

phil hellmuth
mike matusow
haralobob
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Old 06-20-2008, 05:22 PM   #144
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Re: Tounament Hotshot Still Pooh Poohs Game Theoretic Champs

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Sklansky View Post
As for those who are saying that David Singer is not in this category I have to admit that I based my opinion on a very small amount of information. So I am am not sure he should be included.
See the 01/01/07 episode of The Circuit, w/ special co-host Daniel Negreanu and guest Bill Chen.
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Old 06-20-2008, 05:42 PM   #145
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Re: Tounament Hotshot Still Pooh Poohs Game Theoretic Champs

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Should you raise 2.24689752857469bb ?

Shipping is so 2006.

corrected for the math guys
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Old 06-20-2008, 05:58 PM   #146
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Re: Tounament Hotshot Still Pooh Poohs Game Theoretic Champs

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Originally Posted by *TT* View Post
actually many people who have read David's past threads already know the answer.
lol. give me a break.

the sklansky hate is misdirected imo.
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Old 06-20-2008, 07:25 PM   #147
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Re: Tounament Hotshot Still Pooh Poohs Game Theoretic Champs

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Originally Posted by ALAEI View Post
I can understand where the OP and statement come from and I've often wondered the same things. They are much better at than most people, and practically figured out the game of tournament poker rather than survive on their actual poker skills. I think in tournament poker knowing how to work the different stages of the tournament and proper stack management is a more valuable asset than being really great at poker/reading people. While many top pros are good at both, or great and one and decent at the other, Phil Ivey is the only person I can name that is a true master of both. He is by far the best tournament player I've ever played with.
Thanks Daniel, post more! So that's who OP is speaking of, Phil Ivey?
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Old 06-20-2008, 07:46 PM   #148
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Re: Tounament Hotshot Still Pooh Poohs Game Theoretic Champs

Pretty sure its Joe Sebok.
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Old 06-20-2008, 07:59 PM   #149
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Re: Tounament Hotshot Still Pooh Poohs Game Theoretic Champs

*
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Old 06-20-2008, 08:20 PM   #150
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Re: Tounament Hotshot Still Pooh Poohs Game Theoretic Champs

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Pretty sure its Joe Sebok's stepdad.
FYP
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