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Old 03-23-2019, 07:05 PM   #126
Sir Huntington
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Re: Pokerking Asia frozen accounts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon93PCTSure View Post
So we're talking days now yes?
And yeah, adding money from colluders and bots into current pool for everyone instead of affected players would look pretty bad
Bad? Or utterly ******? I choose the latter.
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Old 03-23-2019, 07:07 PM   #127
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Re: Pokerking Asia frozen accounts.

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Originally Posted by newbc0789 View Post
Hi lindyhppr, I am new to this forum and pokerking, but i constantly browse chinese poker forums like zhiyoucheng and pokerren, and I notice some chinese players complaining their accounts being frozen without good reasons. For example, your platform told a player his account is blocked since he played differently from before, so he was suspected to collude with others and cannot have his fund back. However, your site only provides one hand to the player as evidence, which is not opening ATo in position when somebody limps ahead. As suggested by the player, no other hands are provided to him upon request, although the platform told him it was not the only hand detected, and he shared a pdf file sent from your site onto the forum as a proof. I am not 100% sure if the player tells the whole story, but it really worries me so much as it is very important to change playing style against different types of players, so there will be times we decide to raise a hand but fold in a different scenario. Is it really possible to have accounts banned solely because of this reason?

I am also concerned about the problem of huds. To my understanding, most of the non-recreational players are using hud on pokerking. If I listen to you and do not use any huds, while others choose to ignore your regulation, it would be a big disadvantage for me if your site cannot stop these users from using huds. So my question is, technically, do you really have a way to detect somebody is using a hud, if they install your app on an emulator? If yes, I dont mind not using a hud since no one can do so. If no, I have no choice but to choose between using a hud secretly and leaving your platform.

Finally, i would like to know if you have changed your mind upon pokerminion. As stated by the creator of this software, it is just kind of tableninja for pokerking, which just helps players to join the table more efficiently. People cannot boost vpip on your platform, and data mining is not even related to this software. It is always possible for players to do so if you cannot ban huds, no matter pokerminion exists or not. Personally, I find this software useful for me to multi table even without a hud, so I hope you will consider making this as a legal software to be used.
We have a very strict process for verifying collusion - there must be multiple examples of collusion and we combine that with other data that we've gathered. Once the team identifies the case, it then goes through a series of approvals, and then goes to the security panel if the case is significant enough. We release accounts where data is inconclusive.

It's a fine balance when a player reaches out - if we divulge too much about why the player's account(s) have been frozen for collusion, then they can use that information to avoid detection. There will always be individuals who disagree with our security practices. The reason why we created the Security Panel is to help us validate our own standards and to check our work.

Regarding HUDS, please review the above posts. To reiterate, HUDS are not allowed according to the Terms of Service. We however, have not found a good way to enforce this policy and are working on solutions. If you choose to play with a HUD, do so at your own risk. Same goes for Poker Minion.
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Old 03-23-2019, 07:13 PM   #128
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Re: Pokerking Asia frozen accounts.

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Originally Posted by PKAban View Post
Would be interested to see "total number of bots banned" + "total number of colluders banned" after its all finished. Just to see how messy things are on these sites. Understandable if you dont want to release that.
Unfortunately, we will not be able to release that information. The communities that are frozen right now are part of a special group called the VIP channel (mainly used for overseas players and VIP players). These communities represent a small percentage of the total accounts on the site but were the ones with a high concentration of bots/collusion/sw assist.
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Old 03-23-2019, 07:48 PM   #129
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Re: Pokerking Asia frozen accounts.

Will you be employing a name and shame policy for the offending agents?

This would enable players to avoid doing future business with these scam artists.

It would also act as a deterrent to other potential scum bags.
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Old 03-23-2019, 07:53 PM   #130
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Re: Pokerking Asia frozen accounts.

Quote:
One final note. The community in question (where several affected players have come on voice their opinion) was a clear cut and egregious case of collusion. Being part of a stable and having a financial relationship with accounts involved in collusion implicates the account in question.
Does it though? Even if the account in question did nothing wrong, you still feel justified in confiscating their funds?
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Old 03-23-2019, 08:49 PM   #131
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Re: Pokerking Asia frozen accounts.

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Originally Posted by PokerPlayingGamble View Post
Does it though? Even if the account in question did nothing wrong, you still feel justified in confiscating their funds?
In a word, yes. Poker King is a site that does not have KYC and we do not look at accounts as individuals (especially since many players multi-account). We use data to make decisions about collusion and financial connections between accounts. We have also taken it a step beyond to try and understand the relationships between accounts and the individuals involved (which we did not have to do).

Is this an aggressive stance? Yes. We stand behind our decision that any account connected financially to collusion, botting, or cheating will get closed and funds seized.

Last edited by lindyhppr; 03-23-2019 at 09:01 PM.
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Old 03-23-2019, 08:53 PM   #132
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Re: Pokerking Asia frozen accounts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaznin View Post
Will you be employing a name and shame policy for the offending agents?

This would enable players to avoid doing future business with these scam artists.

It would also act as a deterrent to other potential scum bags.
At this point, no. The decision we make on accounts and the communities involved will stay confidential for now. We are closing all communities associated with this channel so no players will be able to join the impacted communities.
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Old 03-23-2019, 10:03 PM   #133
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Re: Pokerking Asia frozen accounts.

Quote:
Being part of a stable and having a financial relationship with accounts involved in collusion implicates the account in question.
So you're admitting these players are guilty purely by association.
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Old 03-23-2019, 11:12 PM   #134
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Re: Pokerking Asia frozen accounts.

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Originally Posted by thusprider View Post
Recreational player at 200/400
Around the end of February there was a very recreational player that were playing the highest stakes and was VPIPing 100pc. Subsequently 5-6 tables of 200/400 would open and would all hope that the recreational player would sit on their tables. I know few guys within this community that went to “bum hunt” this rich recreational player, but were very careless in their approach, using the same source of funds to transfer money to cover the recreational player and also swapping action to reduce variance.

This might be considered unethical but knowing these people they were only trying to have action vs the recreational player and had no intentions to collude, as just playing vs this player is huge value. If you look at the HS lobby on pokerstars, it’s the exact same when there is a rich recreational player. More tables would open, long waiting lists and regs would swap action and send money to each other to try cover the rich rec.
Swapping action on the same table is a form of cheating and collusion and should be punished accordingly.

I don't know why you think that regs are swapping action on pokerstars, but if they were they wouldn't be dumb enough to settle the funds through the pokerstars client as they would be promptly caught and banned by stars.
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Old 03-24-2019, 01:08 AM   #135
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Re: Pokerking Asia frozen accounts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lindyhppr View Post
...If you choose to play with a HUD, do so at your own risk. Same goes for Poker Minion.
And again, to clarify, Poker Minion PK has nothing to do with HUDs, or any predatory behaviour, it does not offer assistance with anyone's decisions, nor does it give you any additional information on players, or give you any unfair advantage. Assuming there is no problem with players tiling their table with a single mouse click or hearing a beep when it's their turn to act then hopefully there should not be any risk.

Last edited by MeleaB; 03-24-2019 at 01:27 AM.
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Old 03-24-2019, 01:19 AM   #136
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Re: Pokerking Asia frozen accounts.

Guilt by association seems like a huge no no. Punishing people for the unscrupulous behaviour of other players is an extremely bad precedent to set. No legitimate player should be happy with this. There are so many worrisome hypothetical scenarios where players will get wrongly punished. I realise cost/time is probably prohibitive but it seems a half arsed approach.
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Old 03-24-2019, 01:54 AM   #137
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Pokerking Asia frozen accounts.

This Lindyhppr account doesn’t seem real. How would one go about vetting their agent to ensure they won’t be associated with accounts that are breaking TOS? Once satisfied how would you avoid possibly becoming associated with these accounts at a later time? I can’t imagine wanting to deposit onto this site after reading his posts.
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Old 03-24-2019, 02:05 AM   #138
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Re: Pokerking Asia frozen accounts.

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Originally Posted by pontylad View Post
Guilt by association seems like a huge no no. Punishing people for the unscrupulous behaviour of other players is an extremely bad precedent to set. No legitimate player should be happy with this. There are so many worrisome hypothetical scenarios where players will get wrongly punished. I realise cost/time is probably prohibitive but it seems a half arsed approach.
it might not be the best solution but it might be the only solution which works in the longrun.

i was one of the first europeans playing on Pokermaster and saw the entire development of the site first hand. I saw the first colluders, i saw the first bots, i saw them unwilling to do anything and now the site is just one big joke.

so what pokerking are doing might not be the right thing for alot of people who aren't guilty but are affected but their zero tolerance method will make damn sure that colluders and bots wont touch the site going forward with a 10 foot pole.

and yes it's also a problem that alot of people putting zero emphasis with whom they work, doing zero due dilligence. here are my 5 bitcoins pls load my accounts. so this might also have the benefit that players actually look abit closer with whom they do business going forward
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Old 03-24-2019, 02:42 AM   #139
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Re: Pokerking Asia frozen accounts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lindyhppr View Post
Just to give everyone an update. We have thus far processed and notified 19 communities. Most of these communities were unfrozen and the money has been returned or is in the process of being returned to the players.

Poker King has taken a conservative but aggressive approach. If evidence is insufficient by our standards and that of the security panel, the accounts in question will be released. If however, an account is linked to accounts that are bots, colluders, or any other form of cheating we will take the most aggressive approach in dealing with that account.

Overall, I understand that this process has been slow and we were unequipped to handle the amount of data. During this period, we had to freeze accounts of several well known high stakes players - many of whom have significant influence in the community and money on the site. We had to do our diligence for the benefit of our community. For the most part, we have received extremely positive feedback from these players (who are encouraging a safe and cautious approach to releasing these accounts).

One final note. The community in question (where several affected players have come on voice their opinion) was a clear cut and egregious case of collusion. Being part of a stable and having a financial relationship with accounts involved in collusion implicates the account in question.
Apparently not being part of the stable or having a financial relationship with any of the accounts also allows you to steal £25k from my accounts though. Using ‘an aggressive approach’ seems to just be your way of justifying stealing funds on a massive scale. Who will you be refunding my 25k to? All of the 10/20/40 players I alone played against and won money from with no other members of this ‘community’ playing? Seems reasonable
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Old 03-24-2019, 03:07 AM   #140
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Re: Pokerking Asia frozen accounts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Apex View Post
This Lindyhppr account doesn’t seem real. How would one go about vetting their agent to ensure they won’t be associated with accounts that are breaking TOS? Once satisfied how would you avoid possibly becoming associated with these accounts at a later time? I can’t imagine wanting to deposit onto this site after reading his posts.
Basically this.

How can anyone ever feel confident about having money on this site? Like me, anyone could be part of a ‘community’, request a cash out of funds, but those funds could be sent to an account which has requested a deposit. This can happen without your knowledge, the account sent to can be deemed to have been cheating and you are then held liable to have all your funds seized due to a very tenuous association.

You can call this aggressively stamping out cheaters, but ultimately you’ll be stealing vast amounts of money from completely innocent players. I find it hilarious that there’s a few people on here actually applauding the site for this, I guess they’re hoping to get their hands on some refunds when a token amount is returned to the player pool somehow
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Old 03-24-2019, 04:14 AM   #141
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Re: Pokerking Asia frozen accounts.

New to thread and not involved in anyway. Read the whole thing and found it fascinating.

I looked at this site because I follow Meale and he was talking about it. I did not take me long to discount it because IMO if it is available to UK players (idk if it is or it is not) it would operating illegally (because of UK gambling regulations) and therefore my money would be at risk. Pretty much everything in this thread confirms that view.

Several respected 2+2 regs seem OK with what the site rep is posting since he talks with content, manner and style, favourable to the online poker community...that's fair enough but from where I'm sitting the site is judge, jury and executioner and that would be unacceptable in any country where gambling is regulated.

Specifically in one of the reps replies to Meale he posted...

Quote:
2) Ignorance of the rules is not an excuse.
Not true. If the "rules" (T&Cs) are not clear (and the rules about allowable s/w are demonstrably vague...and still are!) you would have zero chance with that line of argument if you were up against a gambling regulator (which you would be if I had played and you had frozen any of my money)

tl/dr

Self regulation in any industry involving consumer risk is a recipe for disaster (737 Max, anybody).
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Old 03-24-2019, 05:26 AM   #142
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Re: Pokerking Asia frozen accounts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WotRTheChances View Post
Apparently not being part of the stable or having a financial relationship with any of the accounts also allows you to steal £25k from my accounts though. Using ‘an aggressive approach’ seems to just be your way of justifying stealing funds on a massive scale. Who will you be refunding my 25k to? All of the 10/20/40 players I alone played against and won money from with no other members of this ‘community’ playing? Seems reasonable


Just curious... why have you (and OP) created new accounts to post about this
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Old 03-24-2019, 06:15 AM   #143
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Re: Pokerking Asia frozen accounts.

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Originally Posted by bumpnrun View Post
Just curious... why have you (and OP) created new accounts to post about this
Technically this isn’t a new account, it was created a few years ago, but I don’t read or post on 2+2 recreationally. I used to post on a UK forum under the same alias. I was made aware of this thread and thought it appropriate to comment as there is a dialogue with someone representing the site. Is that unreasonable?
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Old 03-24-2019, 07:37 AM   #144
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Re: Pokerking Asia frozen accounts.

I joined this company because I believe in its people and its mission. If any of the people involved in Poker King thought this was an attempt to steal funds from players, we wouldn't be here. You may question our practices but never our intent - to provide our players with the softest site in the safest environment possible.

To reiterate, closing this community and confiscating the funds was not a close decision. There is conclusive evidence of the following:

1) The community in question was created specifically for this community head and his stable.

2) The community head was directly involved in collusion along with others in the community/stable.

3) The community head and his partner were staking the members of his community and members of the community were sharing action with the individuals involved in the collusion. We have transfer history, interviews (community members, the union head/agent, and reputable individuals who know the community head), and other data that link each account within the community.

4) There is other information that is not presented here that condemns this community head and its members beyond any reasonable doubt.

Poker King does not taking closing of accounts and seizing of player funds lightly. In cases where evidence is not strong enough (even though we suspect there is a high likelihood of bots for example), we have chosen to release those funds back to the players (but close those accounts). This community is not one of those cases.

We have hired, retained, and consulted with some of the most respected names in the industry to validate our methodology and conclusions. These are individuals we count as friends, confidants, and advisors. The company is here to build something we can be proud of. We will not let the ill-intention of several bad actors stand in the way of what we are trying to achieve.

Ultimately, the battle for public opinion is a difficult one to win and thankfully, one that isn't our primary goal. This has personally been one of the most challenging and stressful times for me. We are trying to do the right thing (and sometimes that isn't the most popular option).

Last edited by lindyhppr; 03-24-2019 at 07:56 AM.
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Old 03-24-2019, 07:48 AM   #145
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Re: Pokerking Asia frozen accounts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WotRTheChances View Post
Basically this.

How can anyone ever feel confident about having money on this site? Like me, anyone could be part of a ‘community’, request a cash out of funds, but those funds could be sent to an account which has requested a deposit. This can happen without your knowledge, the account sent to can be deemed to have been cheating and you are then held liable to have all your funds seized due to a very tenuous association.

You can call this aggressively stamping out cheaters, but ultimately you’ll be stealing vast amounts of money from completely innocent players. I find it hilarious that there’s a few people on here actually applauding the site for this, I guess they’re hoping to get their hands on some refunds when a token amount is returned to the player pool somehow
Uh...no. Transfers between accounts are documented and we keep records of which account transferred to which account. Also, the community in question was created for an individual and his stable. It's members are not random. There is no "vast amounts of money from completely innocent players" - this community had one of the clearest cut cases among the entire group of communities being investigated.
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Old 03-24-2019, 08:23 AM   #146
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Re: Pokerking Asia frozen accounts.

Your intent is obvious if you aren't directly refunding players you say were cheated. So far you have been very slippery on that point, when it's very easy to just say "yes, of course we directly refund players that we deem to have been cheated." The player you say was cheated out of 200k should have already received a refund, and yet you say you're "considering your options".
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Old 03-24-2019, 08:37 AM   #147
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Re: Pokerking Asia frozen accounts.

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Originally Posted by editundo View Post
Your intent is obvious if you aren't directly refunding players you say were cheated. So far you have been very slippery on that point, when it's very easy to just say "yes, of course we directly refund players that we deem to have been cheated." The player you say was cheated out of 200k should have already received a refund, and yet you say you're "considering your options".
To be very clear, nothing has been decided on at this point. We are in the middle of an investigation - not trying to figure out what we are doing with the funds that have been seized. The priority and focus is to address the players and communities whose money is frozen.

While I agree in principle that the player that was colluded against should get some form of retribution, that discussion will come after the case is closed.
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Old 03-24-2019, 09:05 AM   #148
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Re: Pokerking Asia frozen accounts.

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Originally Posted by lindyhppr View Post
To be very clear,
Somehow I doubt that

Quote:
Originally Posted by lindyhppr View Post
While I agree in principle that the player that was colluded against should get some form of retribution, that discussion will come after the case is closed.
Your pretending like there's more than one ethical option to consider, when clearly there isn't. The fact that you don't already have a refund policy in place for a clear-cut scenario where you say someone is blatantly cheated out of 200k, means either you're totally incompetent, or you're a scammer and you just don't want to admit that you're going to keep most or all of the money.
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Old 03-24-2019, 09:32 AM   #149
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Re: Pokerking Asia frozen accounts.

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Originally Posted by Sunnyfreak View Post
PK is not illegal. Its a legal company in Manila not a highjacked pirate app like PM is. Afaik the venture capital is main shareholder from PS.
So they have a gaming licence from the UK gambling commission? No dog in this fight have never messed about with these shady apps just curious as my understanding is they need a licence to offer games in the UK if they are truly legitimate.
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Old 03-24-2019, 09:48 AM   #150
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Re: Pokerking Asia frozen accounts.

Quote:
and other data that link each account within the community.
You have data that links accounts in the group, we get it. They send money to each other to process cashouts. This does not mean every single player in the group is involved in cheating.


Quote:
Poker King does not taking closing of accounts and seizing of player funds lightly.
Bull****. If that's the case, why are there so many people complaining about having their accounts closed when they claim to have done nothing wrong? Either they're literally all lying on 2+2 after their money is already gone, as if lying about it would make a difference, or you DO NOT HAVE DATA THAT CONDEMNS EVERYONE YOU have seized funds from.

And apparently there's nothing we can do about it because when we demand evidence you hide behind "we're not at liberty to disclose our methods" as if you have some sort of crazy recipe for collusion detection. Your methods don't have to be protected - it's really ***** easy to detect collusion. I'll give you a hint, it involves collecting hand histories.

Next time you decide to ban someone and take their money I seriously suggest you provide that player with the evidence (again, hint, hand histories) to support your actions.

Quote:
We are trying to do the right thing
You're not trying very hard at all and that's abundantly evident.
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