Pitbull Poker potential cheating scandal - Poker News

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Pitbull Poker potential cheating scandal

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07-24-2009 , 08:04 PM

chesterboy

adept

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,021

Hopefully there is now enough evidence of fishiness for this to find its proper place in the "news" category, or at least "gossip". The thread in the internet forum is becoming a bit of a tangled mess so I have written some cliff notes to present to the poker community a bit of a nasty situation on pitbullpoker.com.

History of pitbull poker:

-sometime around 2000 Federico Schiavio, a high level IT employee of Binions, registered the domain wsop.com

-he began developing custom poker software to launch a poker site on this domain

-March 23, 2004 Harrahs begins legal action against Mr. Schiavio over the wsop.com domain

-April 19, 2004 Dimensus Ltd is formed. This is the parent company of pitbull poker.com.

-WSOP.com under Mr. Shiavio announces an arrangement with pitbull poker.
They begin using the wsop.com website to push pitbull poker.
It appears pitbull uses the custom software written by Mr. Schiavio
originally for the wsop.com poker site he was planning.

There is another interesting person in this story; Kevin Baronowsky.

He is the registrant of the following domains:

pherx.com a pherehormone selling site
pitbullpokr.com(no typo) which redirects to pitbullpoker.com
xardplayer.com(no typo) also redirects to pitbullpoker.com

dsscanuck is a screen name it appears he used on a forum that discusses illegally accessing satellite television. In a discussion on that forum it seems that he was busted by a government agency for selling illegal equipment and turned informant against his customers.

dsscanuck.com is now a blank website that holds banners for pherx.com and eczemaderm.com.

eczemaderm.com is a site that sells a steroid cream product and happens to be hosted on the pherx.com servers.

What puts all this together is that wsop.com was also hosted on the pherx.com servers.

Recent Cheating Allegations:

-there have been a number of seperate allegations that pitbull poker is cheating its own customers through the ability to see hole cards

-the players have requested their hand histories in a useable format and pitbull has refused

-as of today, July 24, 2009, players can no longer access any hand histories online. It remains to be seen if this is temporary or permanent.

Other interesting facts:

-Dimensus Ltd the parent company of pitbull poker was dissolved March 10, 2009, leaving no apparent owner. PBDave has stated ownership transferred to a company based in Cyprus but no documentation of this has been provided.

-Dimensus has never held a gaming license, but claims to be located in Costa Rica where one is not necessary. Pitbull has presented itself as a UK company making this an illegal gambling business. The UK gaming commission has already been informed.

I should add that it is not know who actually owned dimensus, the parent company of pitbull. Dimensus was owned by 2 companies based in the British Virgin Islands, and appear to be shell companies. The BVI do not require these sorts of businesses to disclose ownership to the public. The two people discussed above seemed to have the closest ties to pitbull of anyone that can be found, but it is not known if they really own it or not.

Many links to references supporting the claims in this post can be found at http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...4/index17.html

Last edited by chesterboy; 07-24-2009 at 08:28 PM. Reason: cleaned up format

07-24-2009 , 08:09 PM

prof3ta

banned

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 410

To all the "tinfoil hat conspiracy" posters ready to jump on this thread:
Please read chesterboy's links. I was too, skeptical, and trust me: cheating or not, superusing or not, this is one site you do not want to deposit your money in.

No hand histories... ring a bell anyone?

07-24-2009 , 08:15 PM

MYMESSIAH

adept

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 1,154

Who the hell plays on Pitbull Poker? I have received emails from them in the past and I have not opened one of them because I just know its obviously not a reputable site. People need to use some logic in these matters.

07-24-2009 , 08:24 PM

MyriadChoices

adept

Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 757

Nobody should expect to be cheated when joining a site. And without any prior allegations, it's hardly logical to assume you will be cheated, if that occurred.

07-24-2009 , 08:53 PM

R3AG4N

grinder

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 407

From other thread in Internet Poker

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbdave

Guys,

This thread is getting out of proportion.

Let me clarify something once and for all:

The reasoning I gave you for the small sites like ours not needing a superuser was a reference to AP/UB, it clearly got misunderstood and now you all are making assumptions and thinking and I am trying to mislead you. I was merely making an example, as it seems my explanation was not followed through I don't think I can provide you a secondary explanation that will not make you try to find the "catch". So I will just say this: Our site, first instance, does not allows super user accounts because of the coding we established, I cannot show you the code to prove such accounts are not part of it because it is in a programming language 90% of the people here won't understand (including me) and also because we can't show the core of our coding for everyone to see and expose our system integrity.

Second, we don’t encourage, don’t like and do not support practices that are illegal and shady, we do not have the traffic many sites do, and we don’t make money like FTP or PS or UB/AP, but we are not greedy money-craving thieves that want to take advantage of the traffic we generate because it makes no sense to us, we are not bandits, we are honest people trying to make a living. We have issues like many poker rooms have had, and we everything we can to bring solutions as fast and as effective as we can. We can’t reach certain levels of quality yet, but we are intending to reach them eventually and because of such projections we do not believe that abusing of our players will help, in fact it will only destroy us. Superuser accounts are disgusting and we feel pretty upset that we are target of such accusations, we find that offensive.

We have tried to cool things off and maintain a level of serenity with you all. We understand a forum is a public venue where everyone gets to say what they feel whether they can back it up or not, but for us is also a venue to reach players more often, to be open to every comment, suggestion or doubt people could have about our product and services. And to all of them we respond to the best of our capabilities, but unfortunately not everyone can be pleased the same and always, and that’s a reality we all have to face.

Chesterboy is running a campaign against us, using his fellow mates and this forum to force doing what he wants, as he stated previously. I wish things were resolved amicably and there was a higher degree of communication and understanding but it seems many refuse to follow such way and choose to believe what the rest is saying. We are not lying about the work it represents for us to send 1000 HHs in the format requested, we are terribly sorry if our technology is not up to the expectations of the people here, but we design the software in a different way, even I personally cannot see hands in such format from my admin system, I also see the same graphic end and one by one. Whether it is a good or bad technology to review hands it has nothing to do with us hiding or ignoring or lying about it. We simply cannot take the time to send HHs by the hundreds and thousands to our players; this is why we put the feature to get your hand histories from the game.

I understand when you say that I am not qualified to review the hands with our Fraud department because it would be convenient; however you also need to consider the following:

1. Chesterboy is not anywhere more qualified than us as he is also involved in the issue and we would not be treated fairly if he was the one to review the hands along with his friends. And unlike Chester assumed, I do know how to spot collusion at the tables, I have spent long hours in the past reviewing hand histories at previous places and have done pretty good.
2. We cannot show the full hand history because we cannot show the hole cards of the other players, so the analysis would be biased and would not serve the purpose.
3. If we send once 1000 hands to one player it means we would have to send those amounts of hands to any player that request them at any time, otherwise it wouldn’t be fair and we cannot comply with such requests because our DB would get overloaded and we can’t let that happen.

Ultimately, we have the best intentions, and we feel we have not been unreasonable and we have not been abusive with any of our players or partners in any way to be in the spotlight and subject to so many insults and mistreatments as you have displayed here. Everyone is entitled to its opinion, but it is different when you take opportunity to smash down the name and the people of a place you don’t even know.

Thank you all.

Regards,

Dave Brenes
Network Manager
Pitbull Poker
Pitbull Partners

07-24-2009 , 09:53 PM

EGarrett

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,562

Wow what an irritating post. You gave a bunch of domain histories and vague associations then claimed there were superusers.

I'm not saying there isn't cheating, but without the 8-high Potripper call or some other smoking gun, please be a little more mature with these type of allegations.

07-24-2009 , 09:58 PM

prana

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 8,513

Quote:

Originally Posted by EGarrett

Ummmmm.......

Quote:

Originally Posted by chesterboy

Many links to references supporting the claims in this post can be found at http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...4/index17.html

07-24-2009 , 11:33 PM

chesterboy

adept

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,021

Quote:

Originally Posted by EGarrett

There is much detailed discussion of the types of cheating and the reason it is difficult to produce hand history evidence in the thread I linked. To give you an idea, my hand histories show me playing everything from .04/.08 nl all the way up to 400/800nl when in reality i never played higher than 2/5, except for maybe 30 hands at 5/10. And as of today I am unable to access any of my hands at all. They were never in a useable format to begin with.

07-25-2009 , 06:03 AM

R3AG4N

grinder

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 407

Interesting posts by adanthar in other thread in internet poker.

Quote:

Originally Posted by adanthar

just fyi I've gotten my hands on some anonymously-compiled data on those five accounts mentioned ITT and have looked over it.

1)based on playing patterns and times, I am 99% confident that these accounts are not superusers;

2)based on the same thing, I am 80% sure that something is shady and would very preliminarily say that I suspect a bot ring or some other kind of non-supervisor-level cheating.

to be specific without giving anything away, these accounts acted in a manner that all but rules out having access to all Pitbull players' holecards, but they also do some things very oddly and have a pattern of behavior that suggests...let's call it extra-curricular activity. I don't have a 'good' explanation for it, but a bot ring comes closest to fitting every piece of information that I do have, although I could also theoretically see one or more accounts being totally legitimate.

at this point, I would say I need more information but it must come solely from hand histories that I do not currently have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by adanthar

this isn't my personal data; it's several spreadsheets I was emailed by someone who wants to remain anonymous but was datamining this site along with others. they contain certain information on these accounts over a long period of time that is probably temporarily best kept quiet for verification purposes.

oh, and it occurs to me that Pitbull also may have no clue who I am, so for the record, my name is Serge Ravitch and you may or may not have seen me on 60 Minutes

07-25-2009 , 09:08 AM

#10

oscillator

SIWAS

Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,363

a pro friend of mine, whos not the suspicious type, was playing pitbull for a while. he started off playing lowish limts ( 1/2 2/4 ) and did fine before moving up some. he began making comments about how something felt very very wrong, and couldnt manage a winning session before booking it. he did mention feeling like someone could see his cards, and hearing that from him is more than your standard paranoia. im not surprised to see threads like these pop up.

07-25-2009 , 10:48 AM

#11

2J4U

veteran

Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,555

Is Pitbull Poker the one with the magazine ads with the super uber douche with the big sunglasses and the cigar?

07-25-2009 , 11:06 AM

#12

EGarrett

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,562

Quote:

Originally Posted by prana

Ummmmm.......

Look at my post again. If there was a smoking gun it'd be all over the place. The best I saw was someone posting a hand history where a guy called down with pocket aces without betting them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chesterboy

I understand...but vague domain histories of websites don't establish that there are superusers.

07-25-2009 , 11:15 AM

#13

chesterboy

adept

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,021

Fortunately for us pitbull has done us the courtesy of ceasing to respond, and removing access to our hand histories. That really helps the case I think. We were pretty close to having a working script to retrieve the hands, so they must have detected it and pulled the hands.

07-25-2009 , 12:07 PM

#14

chesterboy

adept

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,021

Hehe it would appear they have deleted all hands from before 7/10.

07-25-2009 , 12:34 PM

#15

prof3ta

banned

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 410

Quote:

Originally Posted by EGarrett

Look at my post again. If there was a smoking gun it'd be all over the place. The best I saw was someone posting a hand history where a guy called down with pocket aces without betting them.

I understand...but vague domain histories of websites don't establish that there are superusers.

Like i said on the second post of this thread: Please read the other thread. Even if there was not cheating going on, there is so many tihngs wrong with the site. The way they do business, glitches in the software, lack of hand histories because they "cannot afford to do this kind of programming".

Besides, and the one thing that tilts me most, their "Network administrator" Dave Brenes ( if thats his real name) has contradicted himself several times in his posts, and CLEARLY does not understand a bit about technology or his own company for that matter. Yesterday he claimed he had JUST found out his parent company had dissolved.

Shady to the max. I cannot say anything about superusing, but based on claims from people on different threads on different sites their software is f'ed up:

your hole cards are sometimes hidden
at least more than someone has claimed to have been flashed his opponents hole cards at one point
hand histories not representing the correct limits or blinds
pot limit games with messed up values for betting. You cannot bet certain amounts.
They have deleted the online HH after this investigation got rolling.
list goes on and on....

Once again, please read through the threads. Chesterboy and many others have done fantastic research on this site and their owners. As poker players we should be backing each other up on this one.

07-25-2009 , 12:44 PM

#16

prana

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 8,513

Quote:

Originally Posted by EGarrett

Smoking gun? Have you read the recent discoveries in the other thread? jesus man.

07-25-2009 , 01:08 PM

#17

J0hny

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 6,456

Havent even heard about this room.Someone made a company in basement?

07-25-2009 , 02:28 PM

#18

syndr0me

old hand

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 1,669

i like how his reasoning for them not cheating, is that they have a small unsuccessful business...

07-25-2009 , 02:56 PM

#19

adammclad

centurion

Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 109

should put it on dragons den...debra meadan wouldnt invest though

07-25-2009 , 03:32 PM

#20

fallon109

grinder

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 624

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omega_Red

This should have been the name of the first post lol. WHO THE HELL PLAYS ON PITBULL POKER lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by Treehorn

LOL @ playing on Pittbull Poker.

For anyone who feels the need to make a post like this, SAVE YOUR USELESS ENERGY. There are NUMEROUS reasons why this site should not be played on that are coming to light, however that does not mean every idiot who thinks they are superior to OP/anyone else who got mislead (and possibly cheated) needs to make such idiotic posts. Why should they assume that a site is going to rip them off simply based on the name alone? If you have other reasons WHY it was known that this site should have been avoided then why dont you actually add something to this thread instead of clogging it up with mentally handicapped posts.

It is very clear to everyone now that Pitbull Poker is not a reputable site and should by all means be avoided. Posting things like LOL @ people who play on pitbull poker do not accomplish anything. So please, before any more of you morans decide to make a post like this, go see the Crazy Jamaican so she can take care of you, thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zingbust

If Pitbull Poker does not interest you, then why post in a thread that's about Pitbull Poker? We didn't laugh at you when you had problems with checks bouncing at FT and Stars, so why laugh and ridicule people who choose a different path than your own?

QFT, +1, etc

07-25-2009 , 04:31 PM

#21

Neil S

King of the sidebar

Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 19,643

Did you know that there are allegations every day that PokerStars is rigged? In fact there is a well-documented nickname for the site: RiverStars.

Allegations. That's all? Allegations are a dime a dozen.

07-25-2009 , 04:33 PM

#22

adammclad

centurion

Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 109

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil S

i thought it was joker stars? thats what i always see people typing

07-25-2009 , 04:39 PM

#23

Neil S

King of the sidebar

Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 19,643

Quote:

Originally Posted by adammclad

i thought it was joker stars? thats what i always see people typing

jokerstars: 17,000 on Google
riverstars: 89,900

07-25-2009 , 04:40 PM

#24

chesterboy

adept

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,021

As far as smoking guns go, this isn't too bad:

pitbull has apparently deleted all hands played after July 10, 2009, which is right around when I really started to hassle them. They are no longer responding to any of these allegations.

They didn't delete them until we uncovered the indentities of the people behind this site. The day that Kevin Baronowsky was linked to pitbull poker is the day the hands were taken down. My guess is he/they know there is no point trying to deny anything at this point and are simply destroying evidence in the hopes that nothing can be legally proven. A failed business is better than a jail sentence.