In the early days of this pandemic, we had a group of about 30 of us that started an online home game - where we'd make a tournament for play chips, but PP/V each other and payout real money at the end. We'd just take turns being 'the bank.' Never thought twice about it, even after our group grew to 70+.

That concept obviously was not entirely unique and the system has grown and now there are guys with 500-person groups and games every night, usually multiple games. When it started centralizing around one person being all-time bank, I was one of the early ones to say "yea, of course we tip those guys a little bit now."

But now I feel like we've created a monster. I see club leaders fighting with each other on Twitter all the time, pissing and moaning publicly about their tip percentages and trying to poach each other's players.

This week, I won a tournament. As per usual, I sent my PP request, but minus my tip (I'll reveal amount/percent in a bit). I awoke in the morning to two separate transactions back to me - the amount I requested and the amount I tipped, the second with a note telling me that I was a cheap bastard. That I won too much and tipped too little and that I was no longer allowed to play in this game.

First off, what % would you say you should be tipping in this instance?

Second, are you tipping every time you play? Only when you cash? Only when you win the whole damn thing?

Again, I'll be glad to divulge my percentage after some feedback. I'm not ashamed of it. If you took my percentage that I gave for this guy - remember, per him, it was so insultingly low that he (virtually) threw the money back in my face and told me to never come around again - and everyone did that percentage for every game, he's pocketing a quarter of a million dollars per year for this. Again.... that's only if everyone insulted him with my egregiously low tip. So I assume (I guess?!) that he's making a hell of a lot more than that.

What are everyone's thoughts?

We moved our quarterly home game to PPPoker too. Some of the regulars from the real world didn't like online and dropped out. We picked up some friends of players and get a game going once a month. We play a cash game with a zoom call so we can talk ****. We figure how much PPPoker raked off the table and divide by the number of players. No tips or rake. Our banker just wants to keep the game alive.

I have no idea what would be reasonable, but if I ever played with that guy, the answer would be 0%.

Online players are learning how soft B&M home games have *always* been run.

If you want to win, tip the host big.

Why are Americans so obsessed with stupidly tipping for everything under the sun?

Just have a set rake amount that goes to the game runner. Why the f do you need tips?

Capitalism

In this instance it is a tip rather than rake because rake is technically illegal whereas a tip is not per se illegal.

Lmao I hardly see how voluntary reciprocity that is socially enforced is capitalist. If anything it seems to show that systems outside of capitalism are possible.

As for the OP, it seems like you should calculate your EV in the game and see if you can afford the EV hit it takes to be in accordance with the socially expected tip amount. If you can’t then you lose nothing by not returning.

So your winning in a unraked game where others do all the work to make sure you get your winnings, and your worried that the other guy makes too much money doing all this for you? About right? You realize no one is forced to do labor for you and you could start your own group where I'm sure everyone will be clamoring to join. Learn to see the bigger picture. You blew a rare opportunity with your entitlement.

to be fair we have no ide what he won and what he tipped

I play in games like this, except the host just charges a fixed rake from everyone so there's no tipping or misunderstandings like this. Much easier to just have rake. The rake is super low, like 2% of your buyin, and is used to cover the game fees and pay the host for his time in setting up games, handling payouts, posting leaderboards and so on. They also have a monthly novelty prize (like a poker t-shirt) for the biggest winner that month, all covered by that tiny rake.

not nearly enough info to have an informed discussion here

if it were a social group that grew into something larger organically then there should be a set compensation for the host instead of this

if game is raked the tip is absurd, if not then it depends upon both how much you tipped and how wanted you were by the rest of the pool

but really, to me it sounds like the whole organization is messed up, he's tracking money in and money out, thus people shouldn't have to send him an invoice after every session, it should be done automatically - it feels like he's preying upon the fact that asking for your money is awkward and people will feel more obligated to overtip the host to relieve that awkwardness - payments should be automatic with a set fee included

of course if this is the world's softest game and you're an unwanted professional then see David's post, could be the group was already clamoring to get you out and your host finally saw no reason to not oblige - happens a lot

i started playing in regular games in underground clubs, back rooms of restaurants, etc etc and once others figure out they are your sole source of income you magically find time and venues changed and they forget to update you - only games that never went away were the ones where i coincidentally became friendly with the hosts - there was never any tipping though, always just rake or a flat fee at the start

I certainly am a biased source because I am heavily involved in the online private game space, but I think some for sure are greedy and are set up to eventually screw someone over, but some are run in the best interest of the players at the huge expense of the operators time and credit exposure. People complain about rake in these games, but compared to games played on the apps that are 3bb cap more often than not(1-2bb cap at 5/10+) the rake in a lot of these games is fair. Similar to app games the thing that makes the game/experience great or makes it an awful experience is who your point of contact(or agent) is. My advice would be to demand to know as much info as possible about who runs the game, whose above the person youre speaking with in the upline, and do due diligence on these people to make sure theyve got good reputations. Try to get a group chat going with the people who operate the game and introduce yourself and get assurance from them that if any payment issue arises with your agent that they will cover. Effectively get them to hv(hard vouch) for their employee. If they arent willing to do this then that would be a huge red flag.

Dont use this chat with the operators often, as all your comm should be with your contact. And only message the operator directly if your guy isn't replying or he is doing something unethical that you need to bypass him for. But one thing you should ask in this chat is if there are any staked or house players, and whats the club official stance on agents putting in tough regs and making them sell the owner a piece. I personally wouldnt play anywhere that this is common place. I'd also ask who the big winners are. The people who are running these games correctly dont mind sharing this info with new players as it levels the playing field. Also the regs will 100% be messaging the operators about you when you first play and he will say some info, so an ethical guy will give you a scouting report of the players.

Now to the important part; $. The biggest issue in most clubs, especially higher stakes is that the operators often are exposed ungodly large numbers. But the most critical task for an operator is ensuring all players are paid every monday without hiccup. So this causes quite the headache for the agent/game runner and its taken a long time for people to develop a system that keeps credit flowing but also gets money in quick enough. I know my games all prefer to operate on credit over prepay. Its less online transactions, the losers can pay the winners, and from an efficiency standpoint this is bet.

In summation not hese guys arent bad for poker.

Yeah agree with what you wrote the tip is most likely because people are more generous with an undefined “tip” payment than you would think...also how does the tip work? I was in a non-union club on PP and the tourney had a fixed vig listed...does only the big winner tip? Are all players supposed to tip small and winner big? The bank should get a fee for their trouble, but if there is no credit extended, then something in the 2-5 percent range is reasonable IMO. This assumes that you get the volume that you previously indicated, if it’s lower buy-in and less volume I could see up to 10%.

did you actually read the op?

lmao 250k / yr

if you need someone to do an hour of accounting per day, ill do it for half that : )

Okay, this got moved from where I originally posted it (Online Poker subforum), so I lost it for a bit. Sorry for the slow responses. Let me try to answer some of the questions in here....

1) Our group grew organically, but this is a different group. For those who don't know, there are a lot of these groups out here with one "host" for each one. Some work together. Most of them fight with each other, trying to poach other players and convince them to play in the game. It's actually quite obnoxious. (And I'm talking PP home games, not some of this other stuff with agents and all that).

2) checkraisdraw - I guess I should see just how far I'm willing to take the 'tipping' to play in these games. As noted by others, they are INCREDIBLY soft. But it's unclear what the 'socially expected' tip amount is. A poker club twitter tweeted out about this for a survey, asking people what they usually tip when they cash. The most popular answer was 3-5%.

https://twitter.com/PokerClubRT/stat...63836090486794

Some answers were 10+% which seems absolutely bonkers to me.

3) My percent is typically between 5 and 6 percent. Five is usually my go to, even if I do less than min cash. It will go over a little bit if I get an uneven amount paid to me (like paying $78 on a $1,278 win).

When these games first go going, I'd tip that and hosts would piss their pants happy. A couple of them the same hosts. Now that's so insulting I'm asked to leave the group.

4) kimoser22 - My assumption has always been everyone that cashes is tipping, and most are tipping in that 5% range. See the above tweet. Again, I tip 5% whether I won $100 or $3,000. I'm unsure what others do.

5) Ivanka - yea, $250,000 a year. It's nuts. Like i mentioned in my original post, when we first started doing this, we would just take turns being the "bank." No one complained. No one tipped. It wasn't even a hassle - open excel, write names in one column, amount paid in the next. Then pay out the next morning if you weren't up to see the end of the game. Ten minutes of my time while I'm already playing.

Now, these guys are running multiple games with more people, but again - if you take my 5% tip on the prize pool and it goes to the bank every single day for as many games as this one hosts runs.... he's making $800-$1000 a night. And that's with a percentage that he obviously deemed insulting. So should I assume he's making even more than that? Twice that? I don't know. But, low end, he's making $800 a night in tips. He does six nights a week. $4,800 a week times 52..... so a little over $200,000..... and that's the insulting number.

yea honestly 5 percent is plenty especially in lower stakes games without a lot of credit being extended.
but a lot of what comes with home games either online or live is a joke. like i know a home game that rakes 50 bucks a pot but you're still supposed to tip the "floorman" 20 bucks when he seats you. and if you cash out some odd amount at the end of the night like 1815 dollars you're supposed to just throw the extra 15 to the dealer. so if you're winning and don't do these things you're definitely out. it's all nonsense and i almost never play in home games for many reasons, but if you want to play in them you need to deal with the bs that comes with it.

I can't possibly imagine tipping in an uncapped percentage once you get into four figures, even in the three figure range I'd be pretty tilted at the thought of giving 5% of $500 etc

Are games raked? How connected are the players, you guys could just hire someone to be the book for far less and they'd be happy for the work

How does entry fees get to banker, and are they always prepaid?

If they are also banker and bill collector, they probably get some stiffs. If people get money to them via PayPal, then PP gets their 4% or so as well.

Games are not raked. Once you're in the 'home game' group on PS (I think I said PP before, but that's the payment method.... I'm trying not to have things closed), they suspend everyone. Then, when your payment hits their PP account, they unsuspend you and you can join the tournament. These are all tournaments by the way. Not cash games.

They pay out top three, five, seven, whatever like a normal tournament. Some just send. Others ask you to send a request via the payment method. Some I message via social media and just tell them to keep X amount for tip whenever the time comes.

Shouldn't be any stiffs because you have to pay before they let you in. All entries are prepaid. PP through friends and family so no 4% fee.

This was the next route I was gonna go.... if I posted this and everyone was like "5%? You cheap piece of ****. Get out of here! You're terrible!"

Then I would have restarted my old group and told everyone that I refuse to accept any tips more than 5%. I can make a spreadsheet, schedule some tweets, and play poker for a couple hours each night to make an extra six figures (not counting any winnings) a year. Jesus.

To clarify....

Host sets a play chip game in their home game group on PS. Tells everyone that dollar amount. Everyone must send him that dollar amount before they can get in the game. So then the host has all the funds in their PP account. When game is over, they send payments back out. Then people send money back for tips (or tell them beforehand to keep X amount).

If you are winning it is more likely that the runner is having people drop out or threaten to drop out due to certain players always winning. If he gets rid of you, but keeps 5 guys happy then he is making more money than keeping you and losing them, unless of you course you over tip.

For the long term health of his club it is better to have a bunch of people just passing money back and forth than it is to have someone taking money out of the ecosystem. I played in a few clubs that mostly ran cash, but none of them are active anymore. The winners took all of the money out of the games and the games died as people either went broke or went to easier clubs.

PP = Paypal ?

What could go wrong ?