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LOL level of play final 3 at 1987 WSOP main event LOL level of play final 3 at 1987 WSOP main event

07-30-2015 , 06:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borg23
hahah his "poker coach" amazing.

and the guy folding trup jacks to helmuth lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadlyBeaten
Inexplicable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SootedPowa
Paul Phillips (remember him lol) wrote a blog post in 2004 about how that specific hand was made up by ESPN.

Here is the best I can find on his blog, sadly the page he links to for "proof" does not exist anymore nor does wayback machine have an archive of it

http://extempore.livejournal.com/54344.html
I remember the post, and I think about it any time this hand shows up (which is often, as I'll watch the entire DVD set for auld lang syne from time to time).

Here is the hand:


So the telling moment (according to Phillips) is the moment when Tony D looks at his cards before folding.

Pause the video at 2:53 at the moment when Tony reaches for his cards. He uses his left hand to peek, and his empty right hand to shield. But when it switches to the hole card cam a second later, we see Tony's right hand has about 15 chips in it. So clearly, that shot came from a different moment. Oddly, at no time in the action does Tony D hold any chips in his right hand, and he always uses his left to put in his calling chips.

Furthermore, after Hellmuth bet, he went into his usual hand-over-mouth pose. But in that hole cam view (2:54), you can see Hellmuth fiddling with his chip stacks in the background. As I recall, we never get a hole cam view of Phil's cards, either.

ESPN has always taken some liberties with its editing. Greg Raymer mentioned something about a reaction shot of his wife coming from an entirely different moment at the table. When Grant Hinkle won his $1,500 bracelet back in 2008, the telecast showed the same reaction shot of his mother on several occasions. Not a similar one, I mean the exact shot used twice. Of course, this is standard for movies and TV but it's odd for "sports" coverage.

My relatively uneducated guess is that Tony DID have JT, and that hole cam shot was an edit from much earlier in the hand. Hellmuth failed to show his cards to the camera so ESPN sent a producer to ask him what his cards were in order to add the chyron to the broadcast. Hellmuth said 77 because he didn't want to give up anything about the way he plays.
LOL level of play final 3 at 1987 WSOP main event Quote
07-30-2015 , 06:37 PM
Maybe it's just nostalgia or retrospect, but if you can get past the bad play, it was somehow really good TV. I remember how glued to my TV I was when it first came out, and even watching it now, it's pretty engaging.
LOL level of play final 3 at 1987 WSOP main event Quote
07-30-2015 , 06:44 PM
Oh **** Mark Gregorich was right there! I'll ask him later if he's ever heard about this conspiracy theory.
LOL level of play final 3 at 1987 WSOP main event Quote
07-30-2015 , 06:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagrims
I'll take the over. Even a conservative estimate of 30 hands/hour, 7 hours/week, 45 weeks/year is more than 9K hands in a year.
Doubt that many people hit the card rooms everyday, even if they did back then it was mostly 5-card/stud games that were played not hold'em.
there might be a hand full of pros that might have those stats, like Doyle Harrington, Chan, Ungar etc.
I would put the number fewer then 100 players worldwide
but I could be way off base.

Sklansky what say you?
LOL level of play final 3 at 1987 WSOP main event Quote
07-30-2015 , 09:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilbury Twist
Furthermore, after Hellmuth bet, he went into his usual hand-over-mouth pose. But in that hole cam view (2:54), you can see Hellmuth fiddling with his chip stacks in the background.
You can also see the dealer pitching cards.
LOL level of play final 3 at 1987 WSOP main event Quote
07-30-2015 , 09:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by otatop
You can also see the dealer pitching cards.
Yeah, that's a give away.

Man, if Hellmuth had AJ or QJ, that's just stupidly sick. But it's so unlikely, and Tony D didn't even agonize. And if you analyze the behavior, it does seem pretty clear Hellmuth does not want a call.

To me it just seems impossible.
LOL level of play final 3 at 1987 WSOP main event Quote
07-30-2015 , 10:01 PM


44 v. A9

"And Johnny will need a 9 to win!"

I am pretty sure that an Ace will help as well.
LOL level of play final 3 at 1987 WSOP main event Quote
07-30-2015 , 11:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xalas
Doubt that many people hit the card rooms everyday, even if they did back then it was mostly 5-card/stud games that were played not hold'em.
there might be a hand full of pros that might have those stats, like Doyle Harrington, Chan, Ungar etc.
I would put the number fewer then 100 players worldwide
but I could be way off base.

Sklansky what say you?

He said 7 hours per week, with 7 weeks off per year. I think most of us put in alot more volume...
LOL level of play final 3 at 1987 WSOP main event Quote
07-30-2015 , 11:22 PM
Hand is super standard, that fist pump not tho
LOL level of play final 3 at 1987 WSOP main event Quote
07-31-2015 , 06:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by In_2_Wishin
Maybe it's just nostalgia or retrospect, but if you can get past the bad play, it was somehow really good TV. I remember how glued to my TV I was when it first came out, and even watching it now, it's pretty engaging.
Agree. I re-watched some of 2002 and 2003 the last couple of days and it's actually very entertaining and opposed to the god awful crap from the last few years.

I also noticed in 2002 they were on about their 100th hand at the 4 hour mark and only 1 person had been eliminated. So 8-9 handed they were getting about 25 hands an hour.

Now every hand takes FOREVER.

Every hand

Tank ....fold,tank fold, tank fold, tank 2.1bb, tank fold ,tank fold, 3b 5b,tank fold,tank fold....


It's so incredibly boring. Amateurs can take their 10k and get a lot more entertainment elsewhere.
LOL level of play final 3 at 1987 WSOP main event Quote
07-31-2015 , 07:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by browser2920
I like how the announcer starts out by saying "each player paid $10,000 of their own money..."

Yeah, that went the way of the walkman.
Selling shares has gotten more common in the last few year, but not all of them back then put up all their own money. The last time Ungar won the ME, someone put up the whole fee for half the winnings, essentially paying 200%.
LOL level of play final 3 at 1987 WSOP main event Quote
07-31-2015 , 08:51 AM
lol he fistpumped after winning a limped pot that checked down
LOL level of play final 3 at 1987 WSOP main event Quote
07-31-2015 , 09:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by +rep_lol
lol he fistpumped after winning a limped pot that checked down
It's hard to tell from the video, but Lederer busted raising A6o and getting it in against a 3-bet from 99. You don't know how many BBs he had,positions, or how everyone was playing, but it doesn't look good. He was the youngest player to make the final table up to that time.
LOL level of play final 3 at 1987 WSOP main event Quote
07-31-2015 , 09:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by In_2_Wishin
Maybe it's just nostalgia or retrospect, but if you can get past the bad play, it was somehow really good TV. I remember how glued to my TV I was when it first came out, and even watching it now, it's pretty engaging.
That's the point too many are over-looking today. TV is about entertainment and players of the past who had character and a back-story are just far far more interesting to watch than some 20 year old today who plays like a robot. Obviously the level of play is now higher (iin what competitive activity in the world is that not true?), but the entertainment value of the game has been greatly reduced.
LOL level of play final 3 at 1987 WSOP main event Quote
07-31-2015 , 09:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borg23
Agree. I re-watched some of 2002 and 2003 the last couple of days and it's actually very entertaining and opposed to the god awful crap from the last few years.

I also noticed in 2002 they were on about their 100th hand at the 4 hour mark and only 1 person had been eliminated. So 8-9 handed they were getting about 25 hands an hour.

Now every hand takes FOREVER.

Every hand

Tank ....fold,tank fold, tank fold, tank 2.1bb, tank fold ,tank fold, 3b 5b,tank fold,tank fold....


It's so incredibly boring. Amateurs can take their 10k and get a lot more entertainment elsewhere.
15 second shot clock which goes up to 30 on the river. If you need more time, you get a 1 minute chip that you can throw out to buy more time with said chips replenished only at certain objective points in the tourney.
LOL level of play final 3 at 1987 WSOP main event Quote
07-31-2015 , 10:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jigsaw


44 v. A9

"And Johnny will need a 9 to win!"

I am pretty sure that an Ace will help as well.
Every time they said a player will need something to win, they only mentioned the card he was going to get on the river.
LOL level of play final 3 at 1987 WSOP main event Quote
07-31-2015 , 05:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil S
Every time they said a player will need something to win, they only mentioned the card he was going to get on the river.
Hahaha! Nice spot, I'll have to watch this again through that lens. Hilarious. Probably figured they could heighten the suspense for a viewership that largely knew nothing about poker.

Imagine if sports announcers did this.

"Eight seconds left, Giants lead by one. Here comes Scott Norwood for what will be a game-winning 47-yard field goal. The only way the Bills don't win this is if he misses wide right. Got that, everyone? Norwood can't miss it wide right."

or...

"We go to the 18th, with Van de Velde up by three strokes. The Frenchman pretty much has the Claret Jug in hand, so long as he doesn't get greedy by trying to reach in two, bouncing one off the grandstands into the rough, and pitching one into Barry Burn. All three seem incredibly unlikely, though. Let's see what happens..."

or...

"Bottom of the ninth, still tied up at 9-9. Terry remains on the mound for the Yanks, Bill Mazeroski will lead off. First pitch misses wide for ball one. Blanchard signals something to Terry but the only thing they need to prevent is a home run to left by this relatively light-hitting second baseman!"
LOL level of play final 3 at 1987 WSOP main event Quote
07-31-2015 , 07:09 PM
You undoubtedly know that the over-the-top announcing of Franz Klammer's breath-taking gold medal downhill ski run in the 1976 Olympics was recorded after the fact. In fact, many sporting events are broadcast that way, including the majority of all golf shots.

I remember a long time ago a televised track meet on which the announcer made some cryptic remark about shoes and shoe laces. Of course, just a few minutes later a runner fell to the ground after tripping on his own shoe lace!
LOL level of play final 3 at 1987 WSOP main event Quote
07-31-2015 , 07:26 PM
I didn't see much play that looked particularly bad. You couldn't tell stack sizes, bet sizes, and sometimes positions though. There was the famous hand where Chan and Ciafonne got allin BvB where Chan had AJo for TPTK and Ciafonne had a pair and flush draw, but I don't see how those were mistakes.
LOL level of play final 3 at 1987 WSOP main event Quote
07-31-2015 , 08:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScreaminAsian


lol dude's like "OMG HE CALLED PREFLOP IT'S QQ-KK"
If you think raising 72o is profitable here, then you're probably playing against an opponent you should run away from if he shows any sign of life.
LOL level of play final 3 at 1987 WSOP main event Quote
07-31-2015 , 08:14 PM
LOL level of play in the 1932 Stanley Cup! Same thing, you can't compare eras as being equal, skill levels always improve over time in any field.
LOL level of play final 3 at 1987 WSOP main event Quote
07-31-2015 , 11:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whosnext
You undoubtedly know that the over-the-top announcing of Franz Klammer's breath-taking gold medal downhill ski run in the 1976 Olympics was recorded after the fact. In fact, many sporting events are broadcast that way, including the majority of all golf shots.

I remember a long time ago a televised track meet on which the announcer made some cryptic remark about shoes and shoe laces. Of course, just a few minutes later a runner fell to the ground after tripping on his own shoe lace!
Nice, I'll have to look for these.

Golf coverage depends on the player. They tend to follow a feature group but will cut away to someone else if there's an important shot. I wonder how often the shot was predictable in the earlier days of golf telecasts, too: i.e. you know the guy will sink the putt, or why else would they show it.

I feel like the 2003-06 era of ESPN's coverage of the WSOP was like that: if they cut to a hand with two unknowns at an outer table, you knew it was going to be some crazy suckout.
LOL level of play final 3 at 1987 WSOP main event Quote
08-01-2015 , 01:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilbury Twist
"We go to the 18th, with Van de Velde up by three strokes. The Frenchman pretty much has the Claret Jug in hand, so long as he doesn't get greedy by trying to reach in two, bouncing one off the grandstands into the rough, and pitching one into Barry Burn. All three seem incredibly unlikely, though. Let's see what happens..."
Pretty sure the frog eater gave back two strokes on the 18th.
LOL level of play final 3 at 1987 WSOP main event Quote
08-01-2015 , 02:17 AM
Howard Lederer probably plays same now as he did in 80s. Would be amazing to time travel Dwan to 80s and see how the players react to him.
LOL level of play final 3 at 1987 WSOP main event Quote
08-01-2015 , 06:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadlyBeaten
Pretty sure the frog eater gave back two strokes on the 18th.
Pretty sure you are wrong.
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