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Old 09-03-2012, 05:41 AM   #176
Mason Malmuth
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Re: Kid Poker calls out Mason Malmuth & Slimy Nerdy 2+2 Mod in rant

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Originally Posted by LTU Westham View Post
Obviously it would be the smartest decision but I think we all know it is not about finding the best solution. Not anymore, anyways.
See post #162 by Bobo Fett where this idea is addressed.

MM
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Old 09-03-2012, 07:06 AM   #177
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Re: Kid Poker calls out Mason Malmuth & Slimy Nerdy 2+2 Mod in rant

Mason,

could you please explain why this thread is allowed, and you have even posted in it.

Looks like spam to me - one of the links goes to a site that contains rival poker advertising and links.

I do understand (even if I don't agree with) your stance on charity poker, but to allow and encourage this spam in NVG seems bizarre to me, especially in the context of recent discussions.

Also, the acting is horrible.
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Old 09-03-2012, 07:14 AM   #178
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Re: Kid Poker calls out Mason Malmuth & Slimy Nerdy 2+2 Mod in rant

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Originally Posted by SantaCruz View Post
Considering the person you are referring to has just apparently been banned and all of his posts have been deleted; and he has essentially been wiped out of existence here at 2plus2, I'm not so sure you are correct.
I'm not sure why he was banned, but I don't see how that makes anything I said incorrect. FWIW, here's one of his posts from this thread:

Quote:
7) I thought that without direct links it should be fine. Again i should have totally left the charity aspect out.
8) Well that was the angle taken in the article so I went with it. Again in hindsight I shouldn't have said anything about the charity angle 7 just informed about the podcasts & guest list.
9) You said this before. I honestly don't know, is this true? It's just the link I found. I apologize if that's true. Isn't the link in this thread the same link?
10) This is a ridiculous statement.
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Old 09-03-2012, 08:09 AM   #179
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Re: Kid Poker calls out Mason Malmuth & Slimy Nerdy 2+2 Mod in rant

It's pretty obvious why I said that it was incorrect. It makes it incorrect because you stated how proud you were to be associated with 2+2 because the site rarely deletes posts criticizing 2+2 policies; while at the very time of your writing the very person you were referring to, Hockey Guy, was having every trace of his existence obliterated by some unknown person for apparently politely expressing his opinion. He wasn't just banned. He was nuked. That is pretty extreme.

I'd love to go back and take a look at the post that you took the quote from but I can't, it's gone. I hope you didn't reprint that quote as any kind of justification for whoever deleted all traces of Hockey Guy from this site since it only shows how reasonable and even handed he was.
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Old 09-03-2012, 08:33 AM   #180
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Re: Kid Poker calls out Mason Malmuth & Slimy Nerdy 2+2 Mod in rant

It doesn't seem obvious at all to me; one example doesn't disprove that something is rare. And since I already said I wasn't sure why he was banned, I have no idea why you'd think I would be justifying it.

There's evidence all over the site that criticism of both this site and its advertisers is allowed on a regular basis.

I'm not here to defend every decision 2+2 admins and/or mods make; mistakes are naturally going to be made sometimes. And there are other instances where the right decision is reached in the end, but the path taken to get there is less than ideal. Much less, sometimes. My post was answering another one that suggested that 2+2 deleted several threads about this, this one was only allowed because of blowback on other sites, and that criticism isn't welcomed. I don't believe that to be a fair assessment of how things are generally handled on 2+2.

Edit to add: Perhaps you thought I was justifying the ban since I didn't explain the reason for the quote - it was to back up my assertion that "the OP of that thread has admitted he made a couple of mistakes with how that thread was started", since the post is no longer there.
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Old 09-03-2012, 09:30 AM   #181
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Re: Kid Poker calls out Mason Malmuth & Slimy Nerdy 2+2 Mod in rant

Are you guys even listening to Mason? What he's posted is quite reasonable and well explained.
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Old 09-03-2012, 09:34 AM   #182
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Re: Kid Poker calls out Mason Malmuth & Slimy Nerdy 2+2 Mod in rant

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Originally Posted by Toilet Bowl View Post
THIS

Charities here should be "let the buyer beware" and the mods shouldn't censor posts about them, unless they are either clearly a scam or some form of backdoor spam.

An intelligent person can usually quickly deduce whether a charity is legitimate or shady.

If you are going to take the stance of "2+2 doesn't support or allow any charities", then you are going to look like a hypocrite when you allow any thread that raises money for any cause or person.

This 22Q foundation is clearly legitimate, and Mason should have just allowed it.
Nonsense. Any organization that's focused around "awareness" should be a red flag, especially when there's obvious legitimate alternative organizations.

There's no reason that 22q should exist. If anyone cared about this condition there's clearly reputable places they can go for information, and to donate money, for example: http://www.chop.edu/service/22q-and-...nter/home.html
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Old 09-03-2012, 10:41 AM   #183
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Re: Kid Poker calls out Mason Malmuth & Slimy Nerdy 2+2 Mod in rant

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Originally Posted by au4all View Post
There's no reason that 22q should exist. If anyone cared about this condition there's clearly reputable places they can go for information, and to donate money, for example: http://www.chop.edu/service/22q-and-...nter/home.html
Blatant promotion mods should delete your post and ban your sorry ass imo.
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Old 09-03-2012, 10:53 AM   #184
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Re: Kid Poker calls out Mason Malmuth & Slimy Nerdy 2+2 Mod in rant

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Originally Posted by Gin 'n Tonic View Post
Mason,

could you please explain why this thread is allowed, and you have even posted in it.

Looks like spam to me - one of the links goes to a site that contains rival poker advertising and links.

I do understand (even if I don't agree with) your stance on charity poker, but to allow and encourage this spam in NVG seems bizarre to me, especially in the context of recent discussions.

Also, the acting is horrible.
Hi Gin:

I posted in it because I thought it was quite poor.

My understanding is that they were told it would be okay to post about their show if it was free to view. But I guess they didn't get the complete message. Anyway, a decision will be made as to whether it can stay up and if it stays up whether their post should be reduced.

Best wishes,
Mason

Addition: It was just taken down.
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:32 AM   #185
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Re: Kid Poker calls out Mason Malmuth & Slimy Nerdy 2+2 Mod in rant

For me it's about what appears to be randomness of application of some rules, as somewhat demonstrated just above. Or maybe it's that quite a lot of times there's no explanation of why something was locked or deleted, etc. When there's no answer given, people start cooking up their own, which vary greatly in accuracy.
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:35 AM   #186
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Re: Kid Poker calls out Mason Malmuth & Slimy Nerdy 2+2 Mod in rant

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Originally Posted by SansRemorse View Post
For me it's about what appears to be randomness of application of some rules, as somewhat demonstrated just above. Or maybe it's that quite a lot of times there's no explanation of why something was locked or deleted, etc. When there's no answer given, people start cooking up their own, which vary greatly in accuracy.
This site is run by volunteer mods. Do you really think you're going to have some sort of uniform application of rules across the board?

We don't go through some kind of two week training course. We don't have a rule book to read through when we need to make decisions. We just try our best to make 2p2 as good as we can. We don't see every post in every thread, sometimes we miss the "bad" parts of a post. We apply rules differently. Some people infract more, some people delete more, some people PM people more.

Of course there is going to be some randomness in the application of rules. Because every mod is different and every forum is different.
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:42 AM   #187
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Re: Kid Poker calls out Mason Malmuth & Slimy Nerdy 2+2 Mod in rant

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Originally Posted by ZBTHorton View Post
This site is run by volunteer mods. Do you really think you're going to have some sort of uniform application of rules across the board?

We don't go through some kind of two week training course. We don't have a rule book to read through when we need to make decisions. We just try our best to make 2p2 as good as we can.

Of course there is going to be some randomness in the application of rules. Because every mod is different and every forum is different.
Did you skip over the second and third sentences of my post? Maybe it's confusing as written. Sorry, I'll try again:

There is clearly randomness in application of rules. This is where nuking of posts and/or posters without explanation gets really confusing and frustrating.
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:44 AM   #188
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Re: Kid Poker calls out Mason Malmuth & Slimy Nerdy 2+2 Mod in rant

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Originally Posted by SansRemorse View Post
Did you skip over the second and third sentences of my post? Maybe it's confusing as written. Sorry, I'll try again:

There is clearly randomness in application of rules. This is where nuking of posts and/or posters without explanation gets really confusing and frustrating.
And I understand that. But if you're modding a high volume place like NVG, you'd spend your entire day writing explanations of every action to every poster who does something stupid.

Our NVG mods turn over all the time because it's an insane amount of work and stress for someone to do.
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:55 AM   #189
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Re: Kid Poker calls out Mason Malmuth & Slimy Nerdy 2+2 Mod in rant

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Originally Posted by ZBTHorton View Post
And I understand that. But if you're modding a high volume place like NVG, you'd spend your entire day writing explanations of every action to every poster who does something stupid.

Our NVG mods turn over all the time because it's an insane amount of work and stress for someone to do.
I guess this kinda brings us to a stalemate, only your name is green, so not really. Just about every mod responds to the heart of a complaint by saying that whatever the complainer wants is impossible because of the scope of the job and/or lack of manpower. I would have thought there's plenty of "qualified" people that would volunteer their services as a mod. Is that not the case?
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:57 AM   #190
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Re: Kid Poker calls out Mason Malmuth & Slimy Nerdy 2+2 Mod in rant

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Originally Posted by SansRemorse View Post
I guess this kinda brings us to a stalemate, only your name is green, so not really. Just about every mod responds to the heart of a complaint by saying that whatever the complainer wants is impossible because of the scope of the job and/or lack of manpower. I would have thought there's plenty of "qualified" people that would volunteer their services as a mod. Is that not the case?
So your solution to a few people doing things inconsistently is to have even more people try to do it consistently?

I think it would be fairly easy to find lots of mods for lots of forums. But when you talk about high volume forums like NVG, The Zoo, OOT, etc. You'd have a really high turnover from people tired of taking **** all the time for something they volunteer for. If we had way more mods, and they were constantly turning over, it would just lead to more confusion and less consistency.
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Old 09-03-2012, 12:01 PM   #191
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Re: Kid Poker calls out Mason Malmuth & Slimy Nerdy 2+2 Mod in rant

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Originally Posted by ZBTHorton View Post
So your solution to a few people doing things inconsistently is to have even more people try to do it consistently?
I'm not sure what "things" you're referencing. I'll guess you mean applying rules, since that fits your wording to make me seem crazy.

I meant having enough manpower to take the extra 30 seconds to type a few words letting folks know why they dun goof'd.
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Old 09-03-2012, 12:04 PM   #192
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Re: Kid Poker calls out Mason Malmuth & Slimy Nerdy 2+2 Mod in rant

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Originally Posted by SansRemorse View Post
I meant having enough manpower to take the extra 30 seconds to type a few words letting folks know why they dun goof'd.
I edited above.

I would wager to guess the vast majority of incidents fall into one of two categories.

#1. People already know the rule and do it anyway. Or think the rule doesn't apply to them. Or they're breaking some super obvious rule that shouldn't even require explanation.

#2. People who get explanations via PM or ITT or whatever.

The amount of the time that something of a non super obvious variety is deleted or edited or whatever and absolutely nothing is sent to the user is very small.

Also keep in mind that the rules are stated at the top of nearly every forum.
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Old 09-03-2012, 12:14 PM   #193
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Re: Kid Poker calls out Mason Malmuth & Slimy Nerdy 2+2 Mod in rant

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Originally Posted by ZBTHorton View Post
I edited above.

I would wager to guess the vast majority of incidents fall into one of two categories.

#1. People already know the rule and do it anyway. Or think the rule doesn't apply to them. Or they're breaking some super obvious rule that shouldn't even require explanation.

#2. People who get explanations via PM or ITT or whatever.

The amount of the time that something of a non super obvious variety is deleted or edited or whatever and absolutely nothing is sent to the user is very small.

Also keep in mind that the rules are stated at the top of nearly every forum.
OK, I have one more question though. If the job of moderating is so stressful and time-consuming, along with the fact of this being part of a for profit business model, why not get paid for it?
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Old 09-03-2012, 12:24 PM   #194
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Re: Kid Poker calls out Mason Malmuth & Slimy Nerdy 2+2 Mod in rant

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OK, I have one more question though. If the job of moderating is so stressful and time-consuming, along with the fact of this being part of a for profit business model, why not get paid for it?
A few are. There are several 2p2 employees who post on these boards and help moderate.

But there are TONS of mods because 2p2 is freaking huge and has lots of different topics. They wouldn't make any money if they paid everyone.

I suppose the question could be raised of why don't they hire 2-3 professional mods, pay them a little, and have them mod every forum. But I think the way we run things now is far superior to that.

Keep in mind that 2p2 isn't the biggest and best forum out there by total chance. Everything may not be perfect, but the way things are run here has proved to be quite successful. I've posted on numerous other boards, from sports related to OOT stuff. This is far and away the more professional and best forum I've ever found.
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Old 09-03-2012, 02:23 PM   #195
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Re: Kid Poker calls out Mason Malmuth & Slimy Nerdy 2+2 Mod in rant

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Originally Posted by ZBTHorton View Post
A few are. There are several 2p2 employees who post on these boards and help moderate.

But there are TONS of mods because 2p2 is freaking huge and has lots of different topics. They wouldn't make any money if they paid everyone.

I suppose the question could be raised of why don't they hire 2-3 professional mods, pay them a little, and have them mod every forum. But I think the way we run things now is far superior to that.

Keep in mind that 2p2 isn't the biggest and best forum out there by total chance. Everything may not be perfect, but the way things are run here has proved to be quite successful. I've posted on numerous other boards, from sports related to OOT stuff. This is far and away the more professional and best forum I've ever found.
I agree it's ran pretty well, especially for the amount of traffic. There's room between where it is and perfection though.

Maybe only slightly related but another question comes to mind. Why do you personally do the mod job? I assume from your wording that you're not paid. I could render a few guesses, but the incorrect guesses may appear insulting and that's not my intent at all.
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Old 09-03-2012, 02:33 PM   #196
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Re: Kid Poker calls out Mason Malmuth & Slimy Nerdy 2+2 Mod in rant

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I agree it's ran pretty well, especially for the amount of traffic. There's room between where it is and perfection though.

Maybe only slightly related but another question comes to mind. Why do you personally do the mod job? I assume from your wording that you're not paid. I could render a few guesses, but the incorrect guesses may appear insulting and that's not my intent at all.
I've been a mod forever, since like. 2006 or something? I replaced JJPRodigy as a mod, so whenever that was.

When I first got picked it was just a fun thing to do because I was young and thought it was cool. MTTc used to have a bunch of contests that the mods ran back when it was much easier to move funds around. I put together 2 MTTc meetups at the WSOP ME. Stuff like that.

As a result of being a mod, I got to meet some of the management from different poker sites and help them develop their sites a little bit. I gave input into the PokerStars VIP system way back in the day, and some improvements on Cake. It was through these relationships that I was able to meet people who allowed me to post some "secret" like information on 2p2 like the fact that Stars was staying in the US after UIGEA. I was happy to serve as an occasional middle man for poker sites who couldn't always just come out and say information. I eventually wrote for Subject:Poker because of the need I felt to try and keep people informed with proper information, instead of the constant spin we always got from the shadier poker sites/news websites.

As I got older I didn't do as much hands on stuff, but I stayed on because I ran the March Madness/Fantasy sports pools in that forum and got tired of everyone being scammed so I felt the need to continue doing those. I finally stopped this year simply because it's impossible to move money around without major red tape.

Now I just moderate the forum and respond to e-mails when people notify us of issues. I'm not the most active mod, but I never was someone who really did a lot of banning and stuff.

Not everyone has the same experience as me. Believe it or not lots of posters on here don't even play much poker. Some mods take on more aggressive forums and burn out after 3 months. The forums I mod don't take that much effort, so it's easy for me to just stick around and help out when I can.
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Old 09-03-2012, 02:44 PM   #197
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Re: Kid Poker calls out Mason Malmuth & Slimy Nerdy 2+2 Mod in rant

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Originally Posted by ZBTHorton View Post
I've been a mod forever, since like. 2006 or something? I replaced JJPRodigy as a mod, so whenever that was.

When I first got picked it was just a fun thing to do because I was young and thought it was cool. MTTc used to have a bunch of contests that the mods ran back when it was much easier to move funds around. I put together 2 MTTc meetups at the WSOP ME. Stuff like that.

As a result of being a mod, I got to meet some of the management from different poker sites and help them develop their sites a little bit. I gave input into the PokerStars VIP system way back in the day, and some improvements on Cake. It was through these relationships that I was able to meet people who allowed me to post some "secret" like information on 2p2 like the fact that Stars was staying in the US after UIGEA. I was happy to serve as an occasional middle man for poker sites who couldn't always just come out and say information. I eventually wrote for Subject:Poker because of the need I felt to try and keep people informed with proper information, instead of the constant spin we always got from the shadier poker sites/news websites.

As I got older I didn't do as much hands on stuff, but I stayed on because I ran the March Madness/Fantasy sports pools in that forum and got tired of everyone being scammed so I felt the need to continue doing those. I finally stopped this year simply because it's impossible to move money around without major red tape.

Now I just moderate the forum and respond to e-mails when people notify us of issues. I'm not the most active mod, but I never was someone who really did a lot of banning and stuff.

Not everyone has the same experience as me. Believe it or not lots of posters on here don't even play much poker. Some mods take on more aggressive forums and burn out after 3 months. The forums I mod don't take that much effort, so it's easy for me to just stick around and help out when I can.
Thanks for the response. I enjoyed the read.
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Old 09-03-2012, 02:54 PM   #198
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Re: Kid Poker calls out Mason Malmuth & Slimy Nerdy 2+2 Mod in rant

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Thanks for the response. I enjoyed the read.
It sounds kind of sad, but honestly a big part of the reason I've stuck on as a mod is simply because tons of people are scammers/scumbags and I knew I could at least prevent some of it from happening.

It really just comes back to the fact that this forum is so much different than 99% of the forums out there because we all deal with free flowing money SO much. There is SO much opportunity for scamming and being shady and even inadvertent scams that everyone has to be so careful all the time. This isn't the case on a Dallas Cowboy forum or a Manchester United forum or whatever where money just doesn't flow as freely as it does here.

I think that's one of the things some guys miss in this thread. They don't realize how often it happens. They don't realize that we have guys on here with 10 usernames who keep coming back to try and scam people for 20 bucks here or there. If we opened up an opportunity for someone to setup a fake charity with the potential for thousands of dollars worth of income, there's just no telling how careful we would have to be. It doesn't even have to be a REAL scam. It could just be someone in way over their head. Look at the Erick Lindgren situation. When he made those prop bets he had plenty of money to pay them, when time came to college, he was broke as a joke.

And yet, despite all of that, this forum has thrived because of the actions of a bunch of volunteers. It's really really awesome and amazing because like 10 people stepped up and became NVG/Marketplace mods and were trustworthy good people.
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Old 09-03-2012, 04:13 PM   #199
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Re: Kid Poker calls out Mason Malmuth & Slimy Nerdy 2+2 Mod in rant

PP's comment on the size of the charity was pretty dickish iyam
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Old 09-03-2012, 05:19 PM   #200
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Re: Kid Poker calls out Mason Malmuth & Slimy Nerdy 2+2 Mod in rant

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PP's comment on the size of the charity was pretty dickish iyam
I completely understand that perception but that was not the intent. Joe's post was the third of the day. I did not deal with the other two but had read them, when Joe's also came up. I deleted it and I sent the first PM so the article was incorrect about Joe contacting me asking why it was deleted. I initiated contact to explain our policy.

Since my involvement in the discovery of the UCARE Charity scam I do tend to check out poker related charities with the tools and info that's available to the public. I think this is something anyone thinking about participating, donating, or representing a charity should do as part of due diligence. I personally have donated merchandise and participated in charity tournaments in the past, as well as provided donated video production services.

I PM'ed Joe with an explanation and an apology on 8/31 6pm.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Professionalpoker
Joe,

I want to apologize about the size/tax return link.

When I did that I had only read the thread title and first sentence of the post I deleted, not the rest which I have now read, which explained your connection to the charity. I didn't have in my mind that you were connected to the charity beyond promoting it and I went off to check it out.

I certainly understand your feelings after seeing that, but I want to assure you, it was not my intent to slight you or the charity, but to offer info I was not aware you had. Once again, it was my mistake for not reading the entire post and again, I am sorry for that.

Mike
Joe replied:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeU
Thanks for reaching out to me Mike. That means alot.

When you did what you did, I took it as a personal attack on myself and my family. My daughter has 22q, and my wife and I work hard every day to make her life as good as she can have it. And the reality of it is, my daughter has a mild deletion, and 3 surgeries later (so far), she is doing well. But the struggles she will have the rest of her life are something my entire family shares in daily. That's why I took it so personally.

I completely understand that we can't post about the charity or the radio show on 2p2, but I'd like to ask you to at least to tune in and support these kids that have it way worse than my daughter does.

Thanks again for reaching out to me. I really appreciate this.

Joe

Last edited by Videopro; 09-03-2012 at 05:28 PM. Reason: grammar
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