I like this post for numerous reasons. Cheers.

I really don't know why, but I do love Phil.

He's just such a glorious weirdo, a massive oddball, but in such an entertaining way. I think the fact that there's humility there somewhere makes him almost human. A relentless personality in an industry of crippling bores. I would love to share a table with him some time.

Why are almost all people who come here to defend Phil Hellmuth totally miss the UB issues in their posts?

Because "Internet Kids!!"

Because "Get off my lawn!!!"

Part of the reason the current generation of poker players is so circumspect in their celebrations, e.g. when they suck out, is they are entering a subculture where the expectation is that people are going to be overly sensitive to losing. Oversensitive players like Hellmuth and Matusow are part of the reason it is considered bad form to fist-pump and shout when you hit your two-outer.

I am also circumspect in my celebrations when I play Ludo/Parcheesi against small children. Against my wife, who is an adult, I don't need to be.

Because everyone makes mistakes in judgement and mistakes in the people they choose to associate themselves with. You think every morning a memo went out to everyone at AP/UB with a list of all the ways they were going to cheat and rob players that day? Most employees, probably a lot of investors and spokespeople for the site were likely misled about what was going on.

Maybe some had concerns that rumors may be true but chose to believe the company's statements partially for selfish reasons whether it's some admin that's hoping everything's ok because she just found out her youngest needs braces and doesn't want to be out of a job or the main spokesman for the site that's getting a lot of money.

In all these years there hasn't been anything credible to suggest that he was in anyway involved with or even aware of some of the shady things going on there. The Makar tapes even say as much when it comes to the cheating.

I get it. A lot of people lost a lot of money on that site. Meanwhile, Phil made off quite well. That sucks and it's understandable why people may resent him for it but there isn't really anything wrong with that.

Is there anything about what he's done in the past that would suggest he's going to speak out or come to the defense of the victims? No. Dude's obviously very self absorbed and focuses his efforts on what's best for him and those close to him.

That's not going to win him sainthood but it's also nothing different than what a lot of other people would do... Evidenced by the fact that so many people from this forum, who should have known better, continued to keep money on those sites because it was a +EV move for them. Hellmuth's just doing what's +EV for him.

You know he kept getting paid after bf right?

haha i like it

This quote explains much about what is wrong, not just in poker but in general life these days. There is no honor or personal responsibility in the premise.

If he had walked in 2008, totally divested and just walked, maybe. But his actions allowed a 2nd, larger fraud. He continued to make bank. AND, he still owns a chunk of Greg Pierson's security company that was built on the back of fraud. At some future date, he will again make bank on ruthless calculations. But yeah, there is really nothing wrong with that.

No, you really don't get it.

You need to stop judging every solitary decision in life if it is a "+EV" or "-EV" dollar decision.

Yeah, people have said that in the thread but I haven't seen anyone mention the details. But my reaction is "so what?"

With the amount of people on 2p2 I'm sure there must be some people that have worked for a company that was going out of business or in liquidation or something similar. You do you're job, you're pretty good at it and are compensated well for it. Nothing you did in your work is in any way even remotely responsible for how the company ended up where it is. A whole bunch of people being owed money.

You decide to leave the company now that it's going downhill because you're talented at what you do and want to be working at a company with a bright future. When you end your relationship with the company they still owe you money. Money you earned. Maybe it's unpaid vacation, travel reimbursment, stipulations in your contract regarding, whatever. Things you feel you earned for your time there and skills. Things you would have gotten if you went to work for a company that didn't go into liquidation. Do you say "nah forget about it, make sure that money goes to the customers the other guys screwed over"? Are you really going to turn down money that you feel you earned, that is legally fine for you to take?

It's not like players aren't getting paid because Hellmuth got paid after black friday. At least I doubt it is. Is it? What are the details?

Hellmuth is always going to have the stink of UB on him but it doesn't seem like he did anything wrong directly.

Sure, it would have taken a more honorable approach in support of the players or what not, even if it would have come at some financial sacrifices on his part, but that's not the type of thing most people do.

Imagine there's a fire in a house and people are outside watching when they hear a child crying inside. One of the bystanders runs inside the burning building and comes out with the child. He'll be in the news, people will be talking about him, maybe they'll even throw him a ****ing parade and give him the key to the city.

The rest of the people outside the burning house, the ones that didn't put their lives at risk to run in and save the kid... they don't get brought out to the town square the next day to be stoned.

We reward heroism and people that go above and beyond what they have to do because it is rare. It would be great if that weren't the case but that's the world we live in and have for most of history. If you expect anything else you will be sorely disappointed.

If anyone can make a compelling argument why my opinion on Hellmuth should change I'm open to hear it. Please tell me exactly what it is that he did wrong, what he should have done differently and give an example of a similar experience you were in where you've done what you thought he should have.

This just blows my mind everytime I hear about it. Do you know for how long and how much he was payed after Black Friday?

Phil Hellmuth was the face of Ultimate Bet. He was also best friends with the founder of Ultimate Bet(Greg Pierson). He is truely a disgrace to the community for accepting payments from UB after Black Friday considering the players were on the way to getting complety ****ed on their account balances.

I've now read all of this thread over the past few days and there is one thing I can't get over.

Just because Dan Colman administers a mighty good (and in my opinion wholly justified) coating to Phil Hellmuth why do so many people make this connection with ASD? It is preposterous.

Further, when Colman makes a sarcastic joke about getting tested for Aspergers some people are so thick they actually take him literally. What is wrong with you people?

Being rude about Phil hellmuth does not make him autisitic. It does not make him aspergic.

Is it just fashion or something? Do these sheep recycle this nonsense just because everyone else is doing it? Since when does blunt talking mean you've got Autism?

I have no doubt much of the Colman criticism stems from his pro Palestinian stance. But he's absolutely right again. In fact the more he speaks the more I like him.

In fact I make Colman a hero. Having won $23m+ in less than a year it would be difficult not to be so high on life that you'd just glide along on the wave of euphoria and keep smiling at everyone, being nicey nice and basically, become a bit fake.

It takes a special character to stay true to his beliefs that he can say this stuff - which needs to be said - knowing that he'll cop a load of flack for it when he doesn't have to.

Nothing ASD about that.

I wouldn't call him a hero, but he did make points about Hellmuth that I agree with. The mistake he made was saying it like an idiot, which I'm sure comes from years of being protected behind a keyboard. He would have gotten a much better response had he raised legitimate questions about Hellmuth in a more constructive way. Since he didn't do this, I can only see him as another internet idiot who is just trying to get some limelight instead of trying to make things better.

Did you give your winnings back ?

Seems like the Pot calling the Kettle black if your now going to sling insults at Players like Phil Hellmuth....

If your not going to be an "ambassador" for Poker, can't seem to find anything positive in the game to celebrate, have admitted to multiaccounting (a.k.a - cheating at poker), perhaps you should just play the game and stop w/the anti poker rhetoric.

Seriously.......get off your high horse.

does the fact that he may be a hypocrite invalidate his claims about hellmuth?

It doesn't help legitimize his "opinion". And that's all it is, an opinion.

Some will agree, some won't. Forums gonna forum.

It was during the summer of 2008 after turning 18. I was staked and was just playing crazy aggro on all my accounts trying to run up stacks. I lost probably around 150k in that stretch as well as having my accounts shut down and 200k confiscated. Even though I was -EV then, it was clearly with the intent to defraud the other MTT players, there's no denying that.

This thread delivers in so many different ways.

Basically, you are right. Summarizing your line of thought I'd say your argument is this: mr. Hellmuth had a contract with Ultimate Bet and he got payed for the work that he did. That the company was earning this money while also committing fraud, has nothing to do with the contract and thus mr. Helmuth should be paid.

Now consider this: mr. Hellmuth has been promoting Ultimate Bet as 'his' choice of pokersite during the poker-boom. He endorsed the site with numerous kinds of advertising; wearing UB-gear, crashing an UB-Nascar, was in UB-commericals on ESPN radio, etc.

'Hey guys, come play at Ultimate Bet.' That's the message he put across, and he got paid to do exactly that. Nothing wrong with that, and no shame in it.

But then, those internet kids find out that UltimateBet cheats the players on the site, using a 'superuser'. Now, suddenly, the message that mr. Hellmuth has put a cross - whether or not deliberately - was this: 'Hey guys, come play at Ultimate Bet, so the company can commit fraud and steal your money'.

So, let's assume mr. Hellmuth did not know about the superuser, and was in good faith about the site and the site-owners. He learns that his 'bosses' were criminals, cheating the folks he helped bring to the site. If you did not know about this, you'd be entitled to feel cheated, disgusted even, because you were used for criminal activities. You were used to bring people in to get cheated.

Now; this is where in my opinion mr. Hellmuth has done - or rather, hasn't done - inexplicable things. He should have issued a press release immediately, take a step back, express his disgust about the company, express his disgust about the players and even him - the greatest poker player ever ;-) - got cheated and swindled. He should have refused to be paid by these people, even if the money was fairly raked.

But no. He did nothing. He kept his mouth shut, and sticked to the company, allegedly enjoying a paycheck, after this was all outed. He sticked to the owners and still does in some way till this very day, only to release a statement after his name was exposed in the audiotapes. Now: these sentences from his statement then.

'I made a wrong read, these guys are dishonest and are bad people... oh, and yeah - well - you know, I knew this for a while now, and got payed for a while by them whilst knowing this, but NOW it's enough... oh, and I still got shares in another business by one of these guys.' That is the problem.

He says he is oh so sorry, but his actions are those of one who is in bad faith. Sure, he had the right to all these things, but if you can't see how this puts him in a really, really, really bad light...

He was the face of UltimateBet. Don't you think as the face of UltimateBet, he should have spoken up immediately after the scandal was outed? I'd say you can even argue, that he had the responsibility to speak up, and in not doing so he - in-explicitly - supported the company.

Good explanation.

You are right, he should have spoken up about it, but we don't know what his lawyers or PR team told him to do. Hellmuth already answered pretty much everything in his letter. If he had to answer questions, his answers would be: "I didn't know", "I had faith in them.", "I thought that by staying with UB, it would help the site go through the storm."

And you know what? He's probably right on all these things. If Hellmuth leaves, is there any chance anyone gets paid back? If he leaves and the site crumbles, is Hellmuth accused of letting down poker players?

Some people may no like those answers, but they make sense if you factor in that Hellmuth is, from what I understand, extremely loyal and extremely naive. What other type of personality would stake Mike Matusow after he got out of prison? It makes sense that Hellmuth would blindly trust people. He seems like a guy whose judgement can be clouded by emotions, no wonder he tilts easily.

It's not that stupid to think that it was better to stay on the boat and try to keep it afloat, rather than leave it and watch it sink. (It was also better for him, but he wouldn't be the first to not want to see the truth because it's best for him.)

Why are people acting as if Hellmuth didn't explicitly or implicitly gave all the answers we needed? If someone doesn't want to believe him… then it's another matter. I doubt anything he can say will make anyone change their mind, so do we really want to hear him answer questions with "I didn't know", "I had faith", "I thought it was best.", "I made a mistake in judgement."?

Know one thing douche......love em or hate me, he will draw more people to anything you can think of between him and you even if you held a sign telling people you won a millionaire SNG. Your comments about poker prove you to be a spoiled rich kid. Fkn idiot one at that. You and your "dark side of poker" nonsense. There is a dark side to everything. Once you actually hit the age where you experience ****, you will see that. Until then please keep your trap shut while we try to get poker back in the USA.

As for Phil, yeah bad attitude or not, he is a smart businessman. He is a brand whether poker kids like him or not.

His lawyer was one of the guys on the tape attempting to cover up and limit how much was paid back to players.