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View Poll Results: Which Book Do I Not Buy
NLHEFAP - Janda 3 13.04%
Analytical NLHE - Bakker 6 26.09%
Applications - Janda 4 17.39%
Super NLHE - Zadeh 10 43.48%
Voters: 23. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-05-2021, 09:54 AM   #1
Al Mirpuri
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Which Book Do I Not Buy?

I am buying three out of the four following books.

Which book do I not buy? You tell me.

Many thanks.

Al
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Old 06-22-2021, 08:57 PM   #2
zinzir
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Re: Which Book Do I Not Buy?

If you're not an anal retentive person, don't buy the analytical one
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Old 06-26-2021, 07:31 AM   #3
AceHighExpress
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Re: Which Book Do I Not Buy?

Supersystem by Doyle Brunson, only book you really need.
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Old 06-26-2021, 07:55 AM   #4
arcdog
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Re: Which Book Do I Not Buy?

Surprised Helmuth’s “Play Like the Pros” isnt on this list. Apparently the key to professional success is accurately assigning animals to opposing players. Seat 4 is a lion, seat 7 a bison, etc.
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Old 06-26-2021, 09:00 AM   #5
AceHighExpress
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Re: Which Book Do I Not Buy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arcdog View Post
Surprised Helmuth’s “Play Like the Pros” isnt on this list. Apparently the key to professional success is accurately assigning animals to opposing players. Seat 4 is a lion, seat 7 a bison, etc.
His strategy seems more to be to belittle your opponents as much as you can till they get pissed and do something stupid.

Works from what I have seen of his antics.
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Old 06-26-2021, 09:07 AM   #6
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Re: Which Book Do I Not Buy?

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Originally Posted by arcdog View Post
Surprised Helmuth’s “Play Like the Pros” isnt on this list. Apparently the key to professional success is accurately assigning animals to opposing players. Seat 4 is a lion, seat 7 a bison, etc.
First poker book I read, back in 2006ish. It's bad lol

That and "No-Limit Hold'em" by Brad Daughtery and Tom McEvoy, I went and looked at it again a few years later and it's pretty funny how bad "good" poker books were at the beginning of the boom. Not a shot at either of these players or their book, knowledge increases over time, but it's still pretty funny.
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Old 06-26-2021, 01:13 PM   #7
LimpDitka
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Re: Which Book Do I Not Buy?

Whatever you do make sure you buy Phil Gordon's Little Green Book.
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Old 06-26-2021, 10:02 PM   #8
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Re: Which Book Do I Not Buy?

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Originally Posted by thrasher789 View Post
First poker book I read, back in 2006ish. It's bad lol

That and "No-Limit Hold'em" by Brad Daughtery and Tom McEvoy, I went and looked at it again a few years later and it's pretty funny how bad "good" poker books were at the beginning of the boom. Not a shot at either of these players or their book, knowledge increases over time, but it's still pretty funny.
Oh man, I remember buying one of those T.J. Cloutier/Tom McEvoy books from that era. Part of the Championship _______ series. Even at the time, they seemed pretty iffy.

I wonder how many of poker books were good at the time, but as the game has evolved such that they've become obsolete -- even if they were effective at the time? Or how many of them were just bad at any time, but poker was booming so there was plenty of cash to be made by curious dupes like myself?

There's also a point at which it matters who the competition is. The aforementioned Little Green Book by Phil Gordon was one of the first poker books I ever read. We can laugh at it all we want now, but I still credit it for teaching me the basics in the mid-2000s, in part because so many players at the low stakes were outright novices back then. (Still true today, really.) One of these days, I'll have to see how much of that book is badly outdated and how much still could work for a beginning/intermediate rec.
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Old 06-27-2021, 07:21 PM   #9
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Re: Which Book Do I Not Buy?

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Originally Posted by Wilbury Twist View Post
Oh man, I remember buying one of those T.J. Cloutier/Tom McEvoy books from that era. Part of the Championship _______ series. Even at the time, they seemed pretty iffy.

I wonder how many of poker books were good at the time, but as the game has evolved such that they've become obsolete -- even if they were effective at the time? Or how many of them were just bad at any time, but poker was booming so there was plenty of cash to be made by curious dupes like myself?

There's also a point at which it matters who the competition is. The aforementioned Little Green Book by Phil Gordon was one of the first poker books I ever read. We can laugh at it all we want now, but I still credit it for teaching me the basics in the mid-2000s, in part because so many players at the low stakes were outright novices back then. (Still true today, really.) One of these days, I'll have to see how much of that book is badly outdated and how much still could work for a beginning/intermediate rec.
Very good point. I read those and were ahead of like 95% of the players I ran into back in mid/late 2000's
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Old 06-28-2021, 05:56 AM   #10
SimpleRick
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Re: Which Book Do I Not Buy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arcdog View Post
Surprised Helmuth’s “Play Like the Pros” isnt on this list. Apparently the key to professional success is accurately assigning animals to opposing players. Seat 4 is a lion, seat 7 a bison, etc.
The animals were elephant, mouse, jackal, lion, and eagle. There was no bison. I was at a table with Hellmuth once and mentioned that I liked his book "with the animals" and he just stared at me blankly and didn't respond. He bigtimed me!

The animal concept is actually not bad. The concept that you play the player and that most players have tendencies. You don't try to bluff a calling station (an elephant). You allow the maniac (the jackal) opportunities to bluff. If a nitty player (the mouse) bets they have the nuts and you should fold. Solid regs (the lion) should generally be avoided. And Hellmuth the eagle flying above all of us peasants picking out the weak poker players. Etc.
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Old 06-28-2021, 06:49 PM   #11
Mason Malmuth
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Re: Which Book Do I Not Buy?

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Originally Posted by SimpleRick View Post
The animals were elephant, mouse, jackal, lion, and eagle. There was no bison. I was at a table with Hellmuth once and mentioned that I liked his book "with the animals" and he just stared at me blankly and didn't respond. He bigtimed me!

The animal concept is actually not bad. The concept that you play the player and that most players have tendencies. You don't try to bluff a calling station (an elephant). You allow the maniac (the jackal) opportunities to bluff. If a nitty player (the mouse) bets they have the nuts and you should fold. Solid regs (the lion) should generally be avoided. And Hellmuth the eagle flying above all of us peasants picking out the weak poker players. Etc.
Hi Rick:

The next time you sit with Hellmuth you can tell him that the idea of animals is not original with him. They appeared in a 1995 book by someone named Ken Buntjer titled The Secret to Winning Big in Tournament Poker. This now forgotten book is, in my opinion, worthless, but it did have animals in it, and, going by memory, the top animal was an alligator.

https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Winnin...s=books&sr=1-1

I don't know what happened to Buntjer but assume he quit playing poker years ago, but he did win a few tournaments and it's highly likely that Hellmuth knew him.

Best wishes,
Mason
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Old 06-29-2021, 01:53 AM   #12
Mason Malmuth
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Re: Which Book Do I Not Buy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
Hi Rick:

The next time you sit with Hellmuth you can tell him that the idea of animals is not original with him. They appeared in a 1995 book by someone named Ken Buntjer titled The Secret to Winning Big in Tournament Poker. This now forgotten book is, in my opinion, worthless, but it did have animals in it, and, going by memory, the top animal was an alligator.

https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Winnin...s=books&sr=1-1

I don't know what happened to Buntjer but assume he quit playing poker years ago, but he did win a few tournaments and it's highly likely that Hellmuth knew him.

Best wishes,
Mason
And just to follow up, here are the Buntjer animals from top to bottom (page 66 of his book):

1. Alligator: Professional Tournament Player
2. Chameleon: Amateur, intelligent player
3. Lion: Professional ring game, aggressive player
4. Jackass: Amateur, aggressive player
5. Owl: Professional ring game, conservative player
6. Sheep: Amateur, conservative player
7. Donkey: Amateur, out-classed player

Best wishes,
Mason
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Old 06-29-2021, 03:52 AM   #13
Dreadnaught
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Re: Which Book Do I Not Buy?

8.Apex Predator
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Old 06-29-2021, 12:52 PM   #14
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Re: Which Book Do I Not Buy?

In his book, Hellmuth who supposedly made 20 million with his player reading skills never gave one tip (at least to my memory) on how to read players. I guess he figures it's better not to put too much info out there.
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Old 06-29-2021, 03:01 PM   #15
Al Mirpuri
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Re: Which Book Do I Not Buy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
Hi Rick:

The next time you sit with Hellmuth you can tell him that the idea of animals is not original with him. They appeared in a 1995 book by someone named Ken Buntjer titled The Secret to Winning Big in Tournament Poker. This now forgotten book is, in my opinion, worthless, but it did have animals in it, and, going by memory, the top animal was an alligator.

https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Winnin...s=books&sr=1-1

I don't know what happened to Buntjer but assume he quit playing poker years ago, but he did win a few tournaments and it's highly likely that Hellmuth knew him.

Best wishes,
Mason
Dear Mason,

I must take you to task. A few years ago on this website you stated that Hellmuth was the first to come up with this animal concept.

At the time I pointed out that the first was George S Coffin in The Poker Game Compleat (yes Compleat) in 1940. I used to own a copy of this book.
A later edition is available on amazon.

The smartest animal was the fox.

And Coffin may not have been the first (who knows?) but he certainly got to the party before Buntjer and Hellmuth.

As a poker authority, everyone relies on the accuracy of what you state.

I hope to remain the recipient of your goodwill.

Best wishes,

Al Mirpuri
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Old 06-30-2021, 12:27 AM   #16
Mason Malmuth
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Re: Which Book Do I Not Buy?

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Originally Posted by Al Mirpuri View Post
Dear Mason,

I must take you to task. A few years ago on this website you stated that Hellmuth was the first to come up with this animal concept.

At the time I pointed out that the first was George S Coffin in The Poker Game Compleat (yes Compleat) in 1940. I used to own a copy of this book.
A later edition is available on amazon.

The smartest animal was the fox.

And Coffin may not have been the first (who knows?) but he certainly got to the party before Buntjer and Hellmuth.

As a poker authority, everyone relies on the accuracy of what you state.

I hope to remain the recipient of your goodwill.

Best wishes,

Al Mirpuri
Hi Al:

I'm very sure I never said that the animals were original with Hellmuth. But it shouldn't matter and Buntjer did beat him by eight years. Also, given that Buntjer was a successful tournament player in the early 1990s, I'm sure that Hellmuth probably knew him.

Best wishes,
Mason
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Old 06-30-2021, 01:04 AM   #17
Reggie Steer
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Re: Which Book Do I Not Buy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
Hi Rick:

The next time you sit with Hellmuth you can tell him that the idea of animals is not original with him. They appeared in a 1995 book by someone named Ken Buntjer titled The Secret to Winning Big in Tournament Poker. This now forgotten book is, in my opinion, worthless, but it did have animals in it, and, going by memory, the top animal was an alligator.

https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Winnin...s=books&sr=1-1

I don't know what happened to Buntjer but assume he quit playing poker years ago, but he did win a few tournaments and it's highly likely that Hellmuth knew him.

Best wishes,
Mason
It is 100% guaranteed Phil Hellmuth knew him. He was the first poker player to win back to back to back poker tournaments which, I believe, happened at the Orleans Open. His book was a Limit book. There was zero No Limit cash games during his time.

His mention in this thread has made me google him and he sadly just passed away in April of 2021.

https://www.hillsidechapelfh.com/obi...er/#!/Obituary

Ken Buntjer R.I.P.
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Old 06-30-2021, 01:16 AM   #18
Mason Malmuth
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Re: Which Book Do I Not Buy?

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It is 100% guaranteed Phil Hellmuth knew him. He was the first poker player to win back to back to back poker tournaments which, I believe, happened at the Orleans Open. His book was a Limit book. There was zero No Limit cash games during his time.

His mention in this thread has made me google him and he sadly just passed away in April of 2021.

https://www.hillsidechapelfh.com/obi...er/#!/Obituary

Ken Buntjer R.I.P.
Hi Reggie:

To be fair, just because Hellmuth knew Buntjer doesn't mean he ever looked at Buntjer's book or knew that the idea of animals applied to poker players was produced by Buntjer eight years before Hellmuth's book (that contained a similar idea).

Best wishes,
Mason
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Old 06-30-2021, 01:34 AM   #19
Reggie Steer
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Re: Which Book Do I Not Buy?

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Hi Reggie:

To be fair, just because Hellmuth knew Buntjer doesn't mean he ever looked at Buntjer's book or knew that the idea of animals applied to poker players was produced by Buntjer eight years before Hellmuth's book (that contained a similar idea).

Best wishes,
Mason
Big chance Hellmuth didn't read Buntjer's book. He is not a known reader.

BTW, Buntjer won a WSOP Gold bracelet in No Limit Holdem back in 1998. His Hendon is pretty impressive. The back to back to back wins that he was famous for - and which was even mentioned in his obituary - happened at the Gold Coast in 1993.
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Old 07-01-2021, 09:01 PM   #20
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Re: Which Book Do I Not Buy?

buy NLH for advanced players by janda and then modern poker theory both are great (y)
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Old 07-05-2021, 01:33 AM   #21
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Re: Which Book Do I Not Buy?

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Originally Posted by LimpDitka View Post
Whatever you do make sure you buy Phil Gordon's Little Green Book.
I bought this ages ago, when I was starting out. It has some really weird stuff in it if I remember correctly. My favorite bit is when, at a full ring table, someone opens from MP and Gordon "puts him on AK", with absolutely no reason or read whatsover. I've been on permatilt since reading that sentence. Like why can't the opponent have a big pair, why exactly AK? Why, why?
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Old 07-05-2021, 03:16 AM   #22
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Re: Which Book Do I Not Buy?

Buying books means you have the wrong mentality to succeed.
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Old 07-05-2021, 10:15 PM   #23
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Re: Which Book Do I Not Buy?

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Buying books means you have the wrong mentality to succeed.
I have the entire 2+2 books. Joey's book ( super fun) , Doyle's book (excellent tricks on 5 card plus his life stories) For those of us mentally challenged they are excellent help! Daniel recommended us some, very good.

Latest read and very very good Psycho-Cibernetics, not necessary poker driven but very good book to put in place for your overall life.
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